Two river spots

[Ravageur]

I had a heated discussion with FTR poster Genitruc about these two hands and he suggested I post these here to get an idea of what the consensus on the best line to take on these two rivers is. I left river action out, but include if you would bet/fold or bet/call if you do suggest betting the river.

Hand 1 : Villain is a decent reg who in the past was notoriously nitty but seems to be mixing up his game a bit more in the past few sessions i've played against him. I have him now at 17/14/4.45.

CryptoLogic No-Limit Hold'em, $5.00 BB (6 handed) - Crypto-Logic Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($470.20)
MP ($546.90)
CO ($447.65)
Button ($1371.15)
Hero (SB) ($915.05)
BB ($690.80)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q, A
4 folds, Hero raises to $17, BB calls $12

Flop: ($34) 8, 5, 3 (2 players)
Hero bets $26, BB calls $26

Turn: ($86) 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $64, BB calls $64

River: ($214) A [color=#009B00](2 players) Hero ...


Hand 2 : Villain is relatively unknown, I had a few hundred hands on him at 16/10/3.5 but i don't remember anything that stood out.

No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($198.20)
Hero (Button) ($211.50)
SB ($255.75)
BB ($70.55)
UTG ($224.95)
MP ($206)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 2, 2
UTG raises $8, 2 folds, Hero calls $8, 1 fold, BB calls $6

Flop: ($25) 3, A, 5 (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $16, Hero calls $16, 1 fold

Turn: ($57) 2 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $37, UTG calls $37

River: ($131) J (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero ...

[JL]

I think I would b/f both these hands because I believe there is value in betting, but if you get jammed on, you just won't have the best hand often enough to justify calling.

I'm not exactly sure how much to bet in either case though.
Personally, I would bet around 1/2 pot in both cases.

[nutsinho]

i would checkfold 1 and bet 2 expecting to never get raised

[zook]

i would checkfold 1 and bet 2 expecting to never get raised

this

[will641]

i dont really see any value in hand 1, and yeah, hand 2 is a pretty easy bet. he has a flush like never, and a 4 never.

[Alexos]

im trying to find good reasons not to vbet both against opponents that aren't good enough to bluffraise us..

[griffey24]

Hand 1 - I think betting or checking hand 1 probably depends on the recent history with villain. I probably end up betting here very often, but reasonably small. I give it like 95 into 215.

I don't mind a check here, but in the heat of the moment I always default to trying to get value here.


Hand 2: I definitely definitely bet here, around 84 sounds good to me!

I'm definitely not b/calling anything though, for sure b/f in both.

[Ravageur]

Gah stop agreeing with Genitruc! now I might have to admit I was wrong damnit. I like c/folding or c/calling in hand 1 depending on how much he bets and hand 2 i'm still really not sure. I just think these are great spots for ppl to bluff me so I hate having to b/fold although ppl never seem to bluff rivers so i guess it's not as exploitable as it seems.

[bode]

i like a c/c slightly better than a c/f in hand 1 on most bets sizes from villain. hand 2 seems like a vbet almost always here as he rarely shows up with the flush and can call with alot of his range.

[griffey24]

I don't really see what hand is gonna bluff you in hand 1 if you check, other than 67. All other hands will have some kind of pair at least, unless you know villain will turn a pair into a bluff here.

[Galapogos]

I just think these are great spots for ppl to bluff me so I hate having to b/fold although ppl never seem to bluff rivers so i guess it's not as exploitable as it seems.

So true. No reason to fear they'll do it unless you have the read they're capable of doing so.

[a500lbgorilla]

someone 'splain why bet/folding isn't a good idea in hand 1 plz? If opp figures us to be in a 2 barrel situation, isn't there a chance opp will call us light with this river card?

[IowaSkinsFan]

dont c/c in value spots where opp is going to bluff an extremely small frequency. Especially at these stakes your going to vbet thinner than your opponents will.

[Ravageur]

dont c/c in value spots where opp is going to bluff an extremely small frequency. Especially at these stakes your going to vbet thinner than your opponents will.

Hmm ur def right. I was just being results oriented and didn't want to admit it.

No-Limit Hold'em, $5.00 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($470.20)
MP ($546.90)
CO ($447.65)
Button ($1371.15)
Hero (SB) ($915.05)
BB ($690.80)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q, A
4 folds, Hero raises $15, BB calls $12

Flop: ($34) 8, 5, 3 (2 players)
Hero bets $26, BB calls $26

Turn: ($86) 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $64, BB calls $64

River: ($214) A (2 players)
Hero bets $161, BB raises $583.80 (All-In), Hero folds

Total pot: $536


No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($198.20)
Hero (Button) ($211.50)
SB ($255.75)
BB ($70.55)
UTG ($224.95)
MP ($206)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 2, 2
UTG raises $8, 2 folds, Hero calls $8, 1 fold, BB calls $6

Flop: ($25) 3, A, 5 (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $16, Hero calls $16, 1 fold

Turn: ($57) 2 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $37, UTG calls $37

River: ($131) J (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $73, UTG raises $163.95 (All-In), Hero folds

Total pot: $277

[griffey24]

I think sizing in hand 1 might be a little big. As much as you don't wanna get bluff raised, you also don't want to polarize his calling range to stuff that beats you. Depends what level he's on though, if he's the type that would perceive a bigger bet as more likely a bluff, then it could be ok.

[Ash256]

I was thinking vbet tiny like 60 in hand 1, why do the people who are good at poker advocate c/f?