FTR Classic Rethread, Week 3

[Robb]

There is great bankroll management advice all over FTR, but here is one of the best Rant's you'll read:

Spoonitnow's BR Management Rant. There is great advice all the way through the thread. This was just a couple weeks after the point where I personally realized a solid theory of bankroll management existed, and that perhaps I should follow it.

Questions I'd be interested in your responses to:

1. What are your bankroll requirements for your current level, and what amount are you working toward for your next step up?

2. Do you have a stop-loss when you move up? If so, give us the move-up amount and stop-loss in BI's, please.

3. Robb says nitty bankroll requirements are better for long term earnings. IOPQ says reasonable (but not nitty) bankroll requirements speed up your earning by promoting you to higher level faster. With whom do you agree, and why?

4. Spoony's suggested bankroll requirements for the micros (and a learning plan for poker) is quoted below. Discuss its pros and cons. What's good about a player who follows this? How long will it take?

Start with about 20 buyins at 2nl or 5nl. This means either $40 or $100. Now, don't put anymore money into your poker account ever. Instead, grind through the limits and get good at poker. Then, the higher you get, take a slightly higher bankroll requirement than the stakes previous so that you better protect your poker bankroll.

When you have $100, play 5nl. (20 buy-ins)
When you have $250, play 10nl. (25 buy-ins)
When you have $750, play 25nl. (30 buy-ins)
When you have $1750, play 50nl. (35 buy-ins)
When you have $4000, play 100nl. (40 buy-ins)
When you have $10000, play 200nl. (50 buy-ins)

If you follow this and regularly play and work on your game, you'll be making a lot of money in less than two years imo.

Most folks know my views on bankroll management, so I'll let everyone else chime in. I'm resurrecting this because I've seen some rather awkward advice on moving up doled to people lately (not necessarily on FTR). Lots of great stuff has been written about it, and discussed here, so I was hoping noobies especially would read and post questions, comments, etc.

[poker_pup]

Geez Robb, this is the longest I've ever seen one of your posts get ignored.

I move up at 20 buyins, and put a stop loss in at three buyins.

I agree with both you and IOPQ. I think you should try moving up when you reach a reasonable number of buyins. However, if you keep having to drop down, well then raise your buy in requirement to something higher so you can gain the skills and confidence necessary to move up.

I'm sure Spoon's advice is good. I know I've read it and will eventually start following it.

[Airles™]

1. What are your bankroll requirements for your current level, and what amount are you working toward for your next step up?

My bankroll currently stands at $272 and I'm playing $10NL. I want to have between $650-750 and beating $10NL for at 5-10ptbb/100 before moving up. I have a lot to learn though.

2. Do you have a stop-loss when you move up? If so, give us the move-up amount and stop-loss in BI's, please.

If I start dropping down towards $200 I would move back down to $5NL until I got back up to $250+.

3. Robb says nitty bankroll requirements are better for long term earnings. IOPQ says reasonable (but not nitty) bankroll requirements speed up your earning by promoting you to higher level faster. With whom do you agree, and why?

Both can have positive effects but nitty bankroll requirements are better IMO because 1) it enforces discipline 2) you'll have enough padding when moving up to help with the learning curve of higher stakes 3) you'll play with more confidence and never with "scared money", 4) you're typically crushing your current level by the time you move, etc, etc, etc.

4. Spoony's suggested bankroll requirements for the micros (and a learning plan for poker) is quoted below. Discuss its pros and cons. What's good about a player who follows this? How long will it take?

I generally plan to follow Spoon's requirements. I honestly can't think of any cons unless you're the kind of person that just wants to shoot up in stakes and gambool. Depending on how well you do at each level, it could take anywhere from 20,000 hands to a 100,000+. For example, at $10NL with a 5ptbb/100 win rate = $1/100 hands. Going from $250 to $750 ($10NL to $25NL) would require 50,000 hands at $10NL. Hope my math is right.

That being said, I'm currently at 1ptbb/100 at $10NL after only 1,662 hands. Ugghh...

[kfaess]

First of all I'd like to say spoon is the fuckin man and I wish he was still hanging around the BC.

Anyways, I consider bankroll management one the most important and fundamental aspects of a poker player's overall strategy. I think everybody has at least some sense of what it means to be properly rolled for a limit, and yet we see posts all the time in the beginners circle about how a player lost two thirds of his bankroll or played above his limit even though he knew it wasn't a good idea. Most notably its discussed in this thread, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ath-t9214.html where many could relate to the OP. Spoon makes the very convincing argument that it doesn't have to be like that if people would just use their heads and exercise some self control.

I'll admit that playing higher limits can sometimes be sooo tempting, especially when you're playing the micro stakes. Yes you may want to move up when you have 10 BI's for the next limit, but the fact of the matter is that we absolutely MUST follow bankroll management rules.

Spoon lays out a nice set of rules that would basically ensure you wouldn't lose your bankroll in the move up through the micros. While these numbers are on the conservative side IMO, I feel that they will vary from player to player based on playing styles, player specific goals, etc... For example, a player who is pretty tight preflop and who wants to be out of the micro stakes in a certain time period may have to deviate from the plan laid out by spoon. I would assume that this player would have less swings because of the conservative play, and he may not be able to meet his micro stakes deadline by waiting to take a shot until he has thirty BI's or more at the next limit.

The micro stakes are unique becuase of the abundance of horrendous play that exists there. It is easier to gain a significant advantage over your opponents in a (relatively) short amount of time than at higher stakes. Thus, it seems natural that players moving up through the micro stakes should take shots earlier than they would at, say, 50NL and above. This also implies that players must be able to move back down when these shots don't go as planned.

With all of this said, I think it is ok to to take shots at the next level when you have 20 BI's for that level. If you lose 2.5 or 3 BI at that level, then it is time to move down and grind back up. Following a system like this will help to move through the micros faster and get to the stakes where you can make some real money and learn a lot more. I think that this is only applicable for the micro stakes and once you reach higher limits it is definately better to have more BI's when you move up because it will take more time to learn how to beat the next limit.

Currently I'm at a BR of $260 and play 10NL. I plan to take a shot at 25NL at $500.

GL to everyone and listen to spoon, don't fuckin blow your BR!

[Robb]

Geez Robb, this is the longest I've ever seen one of your posts get ignored.

I move up at 20 buyins, and put a stop loss in at three buyins.

I think it's kind of a tired topic, but it's a good one, imo, especially for those newer to FTR.

Lemme see if I understand your stop-loss. Say you're playing 5nl. You move up to 10nl at $200, then drop back down if you dip below $170? Is that right? If so, you're gonna bounce up and down like a yo-yo. I would suggest using a -5BI (at new stakes) stop-loss, and possibly moving up at a slightly higher BR and having 8 - 10 BI's of room at the new level.

But you're idea is certainly safe for "taking a shot," if you stick to it.

[Micro2Macro]

1. What are your bankroll requirements for your current level, and what amount are you working toward for your next step up? I started playing ($5NL) with 30BI's ($150). I also play multi-table and single-table SNG's from time to time, so my BR is in the $220-$250 range at the moment. But I need to log at least 15-20K hands at $5NL regarless of how much money I earn from other games. I will start easing myself into $10NL by playing 1 table while on 3 tables of $5NL, then gradually change $5 tables to $10 tables till I'm comfortably no longer playing $5NL. (I did this with $2NL to $5NL and the transition was smooth). Once my Bankroll gets around the $275 mark I'll begin easing into $10NL. During this time I won't let my BR dip below $250.

2. Do you have a stop-loss when you move up? If so, give us the move-up amount and stop-loss in BI's, please.
5BI's below my starting roll. So if I 'officially' (see above how I 'ease in as opposed to jump in') start $10NL with $300, and my bankroll dips to $250, I'll grind $5NL till I make back at least 2-3 of the 5 BI's lost before I continue. Once I'm beyond $300 though I will tolerate larger swings. I just want to avoid them if possible during the transition stage.

3. Robb says nitty bankroll requirements are better for long term earnings. IOPQ says reasonable (but not nitty) bankroll requirements speed up your earning by promoting you to higher level faster. With whom do you agree, and why?
I think it really depends on who you are and your poker experience. The first time I attempted online poker my BR MGT was poor, as a result I went broke. So now to ease myself up the ladder I prefer to have a fair cushion behind me. I don't want to donk my roll away, and I think the more buy-ins you have, the lesser the chance of this happening. If your extremely solid emotionally though with only have 20BI's or whatever then I'm sure that's fine. Just make sure you have very strict stop losses set out. A 5BI downswing kills 1/4 your roll. Since this is the beginners forum, I'd have to go with Robb's advice on being nittier for the above reasons. It's too easy to go on tilt if you're new to the game because (for me at least) pyschological mastery takes a bit of time. For the nitty requirement you need dicipline. But if you can put in the time to get hands in, it really isn't that long before you're moving up. 1 level a month is so doable. I think it's worth at least having some sort of plan rather than just depositing and playing whatever you feel like. This way you're actually thinking about how you will strategically build your roll. It makes things less of a gamble.

4. Spoony's suggested bankroll requirements for the micros (and a learning plan for poker) is quoted below. Discuss its pros and cons. What's good about a player who follows this? How long will it take?
Well I'm doing something similar. Although I just have 30 for $5NL, and 30 for $10NL, but I will probably increase it to 35-40 once I hit $25NL or $50NL. TBH it doens't take that long. Yes somedays it seems like forever, but it's really not. You can move up a level in a month or two if you put the time in. Within a year someone could easily get to $200NL and beyond (in fact didn't Stacks do this?). It will just take dicipline and hard work. So the Pros are: you will learn alot along the way. Your dicipline and worth ethic will improve because you really need to work to move up. It's not the same as just deposting a few hundred here and there and sitting at a 2/4 table. The other thing that's great about a player following this is they will realize the level that they no longer have an edge. You'll start losing at a higher stake eventually if you aren't updating your knowledge/skills. This method saves you money because you will realize the level you struggle with. You'd know right when things go wrong if you work all the way up from $5NL or $10NL. If you start right at $50NL or $100NL you may not have the game yet, and you won't know what level you can beat because you skipped everything in between.
Con's: I suppose if you have lots of money you'll just hate gambling with $2 and shit, but whatever, I think the pro's outweigh the con's here. There are definately some unique skills one will acquire by following the 'ladder' method as opposed to the 'hey letz jump into dis $5/$10 NL game dat sounds cheap rite?' method. I think BR MGT really comes down to what are you looking to get out of poker? If you're here to excel, (which I'm sure most FTR regs are) then obviously you want to have a BR MGT system in place. If your just playing poker for fun and to gamb00l, well that's your choice, and you can probably just fuck BR MGT since you won't be winning anyway.

Yikes that was a long post! I guess I've been pretty deep into planning the development of my BR lately. I think it's definately an overlooked skill in poker, because it isn't always easy to execute (I think this is especially true for a newbie). Once you get into the habit though it's just part of the routine.

[Robb]

Within a year someone could easily get to $200NL and beyond (in fact didn't Stacks do this?).

There are some amazing stories. The mod of this forum Will64 shot up through the levels from 10nl to 200nl+ pretty quick. Several others. IDK what the "record" is, but moving up quickly is doable, and lots of guys here have proven that.

[hangchiong]

1.Playing 25NL.My Bankroll requirements for 25NL is 30-40 BI(im pretty nitty in all areas).My Next Step is too hit between $1.75k and $2k and move up to 50NL.My Bankroll is actually bigger,that i can play 50NL just that its spread across 3 sites and I rather have a Bankroll in a particular account for the stake that im going to play(which is pretty stupid,meh)

2.Actually tried hitting 50NL on Stars with 30BI,but had tilt problems and putting people on hands(which i should have fixed at 25NL).Move-loss i would say was 10BI.So I moved down to 25NL at $1k(40 BI)

3.After some months,Im still undecided which one is better.I guess,other factors including skills,confidence and patience will play some part.Someone said something about "Your Bankroll dictates where you play".

4.Spoon's BR management is really solid.Micro-Stakes players dont need to have a large cushion of BI compare to the higher stakes esp 100NL and 200NL where you are sitting with 5-6 regs in a FR table.

What's good about it?The cushion of BI.Nevertheless,tilting problems is one of the major BI loss of a microstakes player IMO.

I believe someone starting at 5NL should be able to hit 25NL in 2 1/2 months,and 50NL in about 5 months with a good amount of hands.From 50k-100k hands.

[Monty3038]

Questions I'd be interested in your responses to:

1. What are your bankroll requirements for your current level, and what amount are you working toward for your next step up?
Presently I am playing 10NL. To be effective, I need 20 buy ins as a minimum, which for full buy ins of 10.00 means I need 200.00 as a minimum to stay at this level. I am working to step up to 25nl, with a full buy in of 25.00 I need to have at least 500.00 to be properly rolled for it. Presently my bankroll is higher than that but I intend to not move up until I reach $1000.00 to ensure I am properly rolled for my expected swing when I reach there.

2. Do you have a stop-loss when you move up? If so, give us the move-up amount and stop-loss in BI's, please.
My stop loss per session is 5 BIs. My stop loss for moving up would mean the amount I'm willing to lose before stepping back down... which in this case is 15 BIs since I will be over-rolled for the level when I move up (I will move up at 40 BIs

3. Robb says nitty bankroll requirements are better for long term earnings. IOPQ says reasonable (but not nitty) bankroll requirements speed up your earning by promoting you to higher level faster. With whom do you agree, and why?
I agree with Robb. I feel that being properly rolled is very important for not playing 'scared' and feeling that you are playing above your level. If I come into a level at the minimum, then hit the variance of the level change right away, I'm going to have to drop down a level immediately, meaning I didn't really learn anything at the newer level, except that I took a 'shot' instead of taking a 'stand' and staying and learning.

4. Spoony's suggested bankroll requirements for the micros (and a learning plan for poker) is quoted below. Discuss its pros and cons. What's good about a player who follows this? How long will it take?

Start with about 20 buyins at 2nl or 5nl. This means either $40 or $100. Now, don't put anymore money into your poker account ever. Instead, grind through the limits and get good at poker. Then, the higher you get, take a slightly higher bankroll requirement than the stakes previous so that you better protect your poker bankroll.

When you have $100, play 5nl. (20 buy-ins)
When you have $250, play 10nl. (25 buy-ins)
When you have $750, play 25nl. (30 buy-ins)
When you have $1750, play 50nl. (35 buy-ins)
When you have $4000, play 100nl. (40 buy-ins)
When you have $10000, play 200nl. (50 buy-ins)

If you follow this and regularly play and work on your game, you'll be making a lot of money in less than two years imo.

I totally agree with this and my estimates are even more conservative (spoon says move to 25NL at 30 buy ins, I'm waiting to move until I hit 40). I feel that I am improving skill wise, but have concerns about 25NL as I think the players will be better, fewer I can 'pick off' so easily, so I feel I am developing both skills at poker and skills at control, by not taking that 'shot' at moving up so quickly. Also, it is an ego thing... there is no reason to go get beat up until you are properly rolled and trained to handle it. And I also don't like getting bitch slapped by better players... so I want to be ready for them

[kb coolman]

jeez Monty. 40 BI for $25NL is super nitty. I moved up with 25 BI, which was a good spot. And FWIW, I did have an initial -3BI swing, but have been running at 16BB/100 overall since moving up.

I would encourage you to at least take shots if you have +20BI.

[settecba]

jeez Monty. 40 BI for $25NL is super nitty. I moved up with 25 BI, which was a good spot. And FWIW, I did have an initial -3BI swing, but have been running at 16BB/100 overall since moving up.

I would encourage you to at least take shots if you have +20BI.

Im also waiting to have 40 BIs to start with 25NL. I know this is nitty, but I am just so close now($925 BR) that I will stick to my original plan.

[Monty3038]

jeez Monty. 40 BI for $25NL is super nitty. I moved up with 25 BI, which was a good spot. And FWIW, I did have an initial -3BI swing, but have been running at 16BB/100 overall since moving up.

I would encourage you to at least take shots if you have +20BI.

While I agree it is Nitty, it is also about comfort levels... I have had some 5 BI swings lately, variance has not been super nice to me. So I am working on making the game more solid first... if my operation that starts this weekend goes well, who knows, I might change my tune, but I feel there is a disconnect with me playing at 25Nl with that small of a roll. And if I'm not comfortable I'll be playing scared money. But you're right, it's nitty.

[poker_pup]

Robb- I like your idea about a bigger stop-loss and a higher buy-in level to move up. I'll try it next time I move up.