tagg vs tagg, am I insane here?

[dev]

Table was playing tight. V is a tagg who had shown down some light 3bets. I'd been very agro preflop and cbetting a lot but not going nuts after the flop.

Cake Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $4.00 BB (6 handed) - Cake-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($436.20)
Hero (UTG) ($443.80)
MP ($446.50)
CO ($430.40)
Button ($468.70)
SB ($635)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9, 10
Hero bets $14, 1 fold, CO raises to $48, 3 folds, Hero calls $34

Flop: ($102) A, 8, 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $68, Hero raises to $136, CO calls $68

Turn: ($374) Q (2 players)
Hero raises to $259.80 (All-In)

[ChrisBCritter]

I'm confused... I expected an example of TAGG play and I don't see any?

It's a good semi-bluff on the turn there, but I would wager you're going to get looked up a lot from the CO who is obviously quite interested in this hand by not being scared off from the check/min-raise (hi there I've got a set, but not likely on this board)

Meh, why not just fold this pre and be done with it? what made this happen?

[bjsaust]

I'd been very agro preflop and cbetting a lot but not going nuts after the flop.

I guess you put an end to that .

I dont think flop is bad as a pure bluff, and turn is probably fine afterwards, but its really unnecessary. I think this is one of those spots that becomes better if we have more equity on the flop. We got the 2nd bet card in the deck for us on the turn, we normally wont be that lucky.

[chipblight]

under the gun 9 10 is a fold suited or not
maybe i read wrong books

[bode]

bet sizing and everything else looks really good, but this is the wrong flop texture to pull this on. like bj said, it would be nice to have SOME equity on the flop before pulling the trigger.

[griffey24]

I really don't like this hand. I'd just fold pre, rather than calling a 3bet OOP here.I'm not sure how light he's 3betting your UTG open?

On the flop, what value hand would you ever play like this?

You're going to 4bet AK pre mostly.
Are you really going to c/r AQ on this flop, instead of letting him bluff on such a dry board? I really don't think you're repping anything here at all.

If he has air, this works. But I'm not sure if hands like KK/QQ are even betting this flop too often, so you're getting snapped on this turn here a lottt once he b/c's flop. Especially now that all weakish Aces, if he did have those, thinks they are chopping.

Back to my original question though, what value hand would you ever play like this?

[dev]

I think he cbets his whole range on the flop, but I also figured he'd fold to anything with 99-KK, hence the c/minraise. The turn card was so good for me I just kinda immediately went for the bomb. After thinking about it, I may have like 0 FE there.

[griffey24]

I think he cbets his whole range on the flop,

I agree with this, and I agree that he bets all his air on this flop for sure.

BUT, I'd like this a lot more if you were CO and he was BTN and his range has a LOT more air in it, than c/r vs his 3betting range vs your UTG open.

If you're going to get fancy, at least get fancy when his range is weak AND you can rep something credible.

[Jack Sawyer]

yeti theorem suggests CO ain't bluffin

[nutsinho]

yeti theorem suggests CO ain't bluffin

really

[Jack Sawyer]

really

yep, this probably explains it better

so you're getting snapped on this turn here a lottt once he b/c's flop

[dev]

Yeti theorem says if he comes over the top of my CiB he's almost always bluffing. That doesn't necessarily mean that he's not bluffing when he c-bets.

[Galapogos]

Yeti theorem is dead.

[thizzSantaCruz]

wow my head hurts, i dont see yeti theorem or a CiB in this hand. I just fold pf

[bigspenda73]

wow my head hurts, i dont see yeti theorem or a CiB in this hand. I just fold pf

[bode]

Yeti theorem is dead.

this

[bjsaust]

I like and respect you dev, but I hate when people call a normal minraise a cib.

[Fnord]

This hand is really retarded and has no balance.

[bjsaust]

I think one thing to learn here. Sometimes we call with speculative hands PF planning to "take it away" postflop if we miss, but sometimes the board just doesnt support that. If its not a balanced spot where we would play that way with a nut hand, then its not a great spot to bluff.

[XTR1000]

If its not a balanced spot where we would play that way with a nut hand, then its not a great spot to bluff.

aka ISF theorem

[griffey24]

I think one thing to learn here. Sometimes we call with speculative hands PF planning to "take it away" postflop if we miss, but sometimes the board just doesnt support that. If its not a balanced spot where we would play that way with a nut hand, then its not a great spot to bluff.

[elipsesjeff]

I can see us maybe playing AK/AA this way but its such a small range to represent and is so unlikely for us to have given earlier action that it can't be a good spot for us to bluff. That said, it'd be a pretty good way to get value when we do have AK/AA because it wouldn't make sense for us to have it.

[minSim]

I think one thing to learn here. Sometimes we call with speculative hands PF planning to "take it away" postflop if we miss, but sometimes the board just doesnt support that. If its not a balanced spot where we would play that way with a nut hand, then its not a great spot to bluff.

Yeah this. You don't have to go crazy on all flops. Make sure you know which ones before you call in these situations preflop. Otherwise you'll be spewing and you'd be way better of folding preflop.

[dsaxton]

I think it probably makes sense to go for a free card on the turn, even if you feel dumb checking. I imagine I probably would've just gone all-in in the heat of the moment too. I pretty much agree with what everyone else is saying otherwise.

[IowaSkinsFan]

Open pre is fine.

Fold to threebet.

On flop: If we were going to bluff here ever I guess this is the hand we'd do it with right? Just fold to flop cbet. I don't think a minraise here is horrible, but its certainly bad.

[dev]

[ ] thinks about FE before semibluffing
[x] not horrible, just bad
[ ] doesn't understand what CiB means
[x] understands what yeti theorem is
[x] Yeti is dead, babe, Yeti is dead.

edited for bsjaust's gracious teachings

[bjsaust]

bet, raise, min-raise = CiB
bet, min-raise = min-raise