Accountability and one last shot at cash games

[kevster]

Ok, so I'm starting a blog/operation for the first time but not because things are going well.

I've been stuck around $500 for so long that it isn't funny anymore and I'm determined to do something about it. I'll only ever be playing poker as a hobby but I don't see the point if I'm not going to improve / move up.

Very Brief History: I've tended to do ok at SNGs/Tourneys and then lose a fair bit playing cash then switch back and repeat.

In December, I moved $512 to PokerStars for their reload bonus and started half-stacking 25NL. This went ok and I moved on to buying for the full 25 usually playing for tables. I guess I was on a heater because, despite reviewing hands and fixing some leaks a huge downswing started and hasn't stopped. I'm now break-even over 11K hands and it's soooooo depressing. As I'm back down to $500, I'm doing the sensible thing and changing down to 10NL. My ego has no issue with this and my confidence could use a boost.

My hope is that by posting hands/thoughts/updates here, the dumb stuff will shine through and get fixed.

If I have a goal, then I guess it's $1K - it's as good a target as any but my real aim is to shake off the leaks and improve. If I fail, I'm either quitting poker or going back to SNGs but I'll decide that later.

All shout outs and advice are welcome from anyone.

My immediate task is to do some reading/studying before any more play. First up: Spenda's $5NL FR vid

[Jason]

I've tended to do ok at SNGs/Tourneys and then lose a fair bit playing cash then switch back and repeat.

This stands out to me because when I first started, I would bounce back between tournaments and cash games. I did pretty well in tournaments, but my cash results started off well and quickly faded. I decided to stick with tournaments. I took a break from poker and when I recently came back, I wanted to succeed @ cash games and decided to ditch tournaments. To maximize success, I think focusing on one game really helps and even more so when you're NOT succeeding.

The difference between tournaments and cash games is huge in my opinion. In tournaments, blinds change and they don't in ring. Tournaments have inflection points where you have to make moves and pick your spots. Cash games are on an even keel and there is no pressure to make moves as you can always dip back into your wallet. Even when you focus on one type of game, the differences between the games within the games can make a difference - full ring versus 6 max, normal speed versus fast speed, SNG versus MTT, normal speed versus turbo, and the like.

So, evaluate what you want to do and focus on being the best at that. After you achieve success or conclude you cannot reach it, then you can expand or just move on to something else if you like.

In December, I moved $512 to PokerStars for their reload Bonus and started half-stacking 25NL. This went ok and I moved on to buying for the full 25 usually playing for tables. I guess I was on a heater because, despite reviewing hands and fixing some leaks a huge downswing started and hasn't stopped. I'm now break-even over 11K hands and it's soooooo depressing. As I'm back down to $500, I'm doing the sensible thing and changing down to 10NL. My ego has no issue with this and my confidence could use a boost.

I don't know how much the Bonus played into your decision, but it goes hand in hand with why I think Bonus whoring is an overrated distraction that can hurt you more than it can help you. The first mistake I think you made was half-stacking. If you want to play no limit, you need a full stack. When you hit a set of kings and double up off a villain with AK who spiked two pair or just a king, you want to double up the FULL amount, not half. Assuming you can even beat that level, buying in for half is costing you value and helping you bust quicker. The next mistake you made was playing $25NL with $500, which is only adequate for $10NL. If you want to play $25NL, you need the full 30 buy-ins of $750.

As for your confidence boost, everything I mentioned had nothing to do with playing actual poker. It's just a choice on your part to exercise simple discipline. The good news is you broke even doing just about everything wrong Now, do things right, try to play good poker, and let's see what happens.

Good luck.

[dranger7070]

Jason, I think you are wrong when you say that he was wrong to play 25nl with $500. Sure it isn't optimal, but it's 20 BI's. Nothing wrong with moving up in stakes when you have 20 BI's, or at least taking a shot. In fact, I'm actually going to take a shot at 25nl when I hit $500. I agree that $750 is probably best for most, and if I lose 3-5 BI's early, I'm going to move down, grind up to $550, rinse, wash, repeat. Until I can comfortably play at that level.

BTW, Good Luck kevster!

[OhBollocks]

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...67665-100.html

IMO

[kevster]

Thanks for comments so far guys.

I don't know how much the Bonus played into your decision, but it goes hand in hand with why I think Bonus whoring is an overrated distraction that can hurt you more than it can help you. The first mistake I think you made was half-stacking. If you want to play no limit, you need a full stack. When you hit a set of kings and double up off a villain with AK who spiked two pair or just a king, you want to double up the FULL amount, not half. Assuming you can even beat that level, buying in for half is costing you value and helping you bust quicker. The next mistake you made was playing $25NL with $500, which is only adequate for $10NL. If you want to play $25NL, you need the full 30 buy-ins of $750.

First up, half-stacking is a perfectly valid strategy. Whether I played it well or not is debatable but I was up well over $600 before full stacking so I don't think bankroll was a huge issue (many consider $650 suitable).

As for the bonus, I don't think that affected my decisions but it definitely takes a back seat for now. I have till June to clear it anyway and I'm already over half way there.

I should've said - I've been playing FR at Stars and will continue to do so at 10NL. I'll update the OP for clarity.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...67665-100.html

IMO

Yes!!! I really need to get my ass into gear on this one. I tried it before and couldn't get it working and never came back to it. Time to try again methinks.

[HeAVyB101]

Kev,

This sounds all to familiar to me. I was in the same boat for the past few years. I played poker for fun and to cure boredom. I made money and have definitely profited in the long run but I could have made so much more had I concentrated on one aspect of the game. I would constantly get bored of playing tournaments so I'd switch to cash, then to sng's, etc etc. I decided finally on strictly cash games, with a tournament whenever I know I have 4+ hours to play.

I think your bankroll management is perfectly fine. I started playing 25nl with $500. I was comfortable in my playing ability and I knew I would move down to 10nl if I did bad. Well over the past 5k hands 4 tabling at 25nl I'm up almost $200. I plan on adding a 50nl table once I hit $1000 and slowly add more 50nl tables until I'm comfortable with all 4 tables being 50nl. Something you may want to give a try.

Don't be frustrated. Be excited that you're ready to get serious and soak up as much information as possible. Your results will show it. Trust me when I say that being a part of FTR makes you way ahead of the competition. Best of luck!!

[Sir Pawnalot]

Cash players are in general better poker players than tourney players.

Do not dwell on the past and focus on improving your game. Every day that passes increases your edge until it is so huge you have no choice but move up in level.

GL

[Sup3rM4N]

Good luck man.

For me, at 10NL and 25NL, the biggest opponent was myself. Realizing which spots i was being spewy and to control myself better (meaning right places to bluff, not bluff the fishes and not tilt/play when I'm in a bad state) were the biggest improvements that helped my winrate.

[dev]

Every day that passes increases your edge until it is so huge you have no choice but move up in level.

This is Tommy Angelo -esk.

GL Kev, I look forward to checking in on your progress and being mesmerized by your avatar.

[dranger7070]

Cash players are in general better poker players than tourney players.

Do not dwell on the past and focus on improving your game. Every day that passes increases your edge until it is so huge you have no choice but move up in level.

GL

This is wrong on so many levels... Seriously dude, where do you get that information from?

OBVIOUSLY, a cash player is going to be better at a cash game than a tourney player. He's had more experience in it.

Obviously, a tourney player is going to be better at tourneys than a cash player.

Depends on the game, and even then there are going to be a ton of exceptions. Fix your line of thinking imo.

[kevster]

Ok, a few thoughts before I start playing.

I feel my biggest leaks at present relate to calling and in particular the river. Typically, villain will bet small every street and show up with two pair so I'll be looking out for these spots and posting hands where appropriate.

Post flop bet sizing is also a significant issue for me. It's something that I don't consider often enough before throwing a bet out there. I just do what I feel is right/standard but don't actually have sufficient reasoning so this is something I want to work on too.

Also, I wonder, does PokerTracker hold me back? I love it but it's too easy to rely on it. Therefore, I'm going to be playing plenty of sessions on my laptop without PT.

Ok, enough chat. I'm going to get a short session in before bed.

Starting BR: $499.95

[kevster]

These hands are not untypical of the kind of thing I come up against.

Hand 1: I don't think we can call profitably here even if we add in suited overs to his range

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (MP2) ($9.90)
MP3 ($5.25)
CO ($2.30)
Button ($12.40)
SB ($1.75)
BB ($2)
UTG ($7.65)
UTG+1 ($14.75)
MP1 ($10)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 6, 6
3 folds, Hero bets $0.40, MP3 calls $0.40, 4 folds

Flop: ($0.95) 10, 5, 10 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.70, MP3 raises to $4.85 (All-In), Hero folds

Hand 2: I think I probably should've slowed down on the turn. His pre-flop limp-call threw me. Turn bet is horrible and a good example of my poor bet sizing. I wasn't particularly expecting a call on the flop and then didn't think through the turn correctly at all.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (BB) ($9.30)
UTG ($3)
UTG+1 ($15.25)
MP1 ($6.30)
MP2 ($10.45)
CO ($7.45)
Button ($5.85)
SB ($10.70)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7, 7
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.10, 4 folds, SB calls $0.05, Hero bets $0.50, UTG+1 calls $0.40, 1 fold

Flop: ($1.10) 5, 2, 8 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.80, UTG+1 calls $0.80

Turn: ($2.70) 6 (2 players)
Hero bets $1, UTG+1 calls $1

River: ($4.70) K (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $1.60, Hero ??

[dranger7070]

Hand 1 is standard fold imo.

Hand 2 Flop c-bet is good. On turn, obviously bet closer 2, or 2.25. On river, I lean towards folding, but hes giving such a good price... Idk I'll be pretty eager to see what others have to say.

[Jason]

Well, I guess there's really no "right" or "wrong" way to go about it. I personally think it's far from optimal to buy in short and go to a level with less than 30 buy-ins. I can point to countless operations, blogs, and posts from players who take shots and play under rolled and keep having trouble moving up and are often emotionally affected by losing 1 or 2 buyins or taking 1 or 2 bad beats when those are routine events in our trade that you should be able to handle without so much as blinking. Very scarce are the posts from players who are adequately rolled, focused, and have beat each level soundly without taking shots who find themselves facing similar problems.

As for buying in short, yes, it can be a viable strategy and I'm sure anything could be successful with enough research and practice. And by all means, if that's what you want to do, go for it, but how many accomplished players advocate buying in short? In Sklansky's No Limit Theory and Practice, he specifically advocates buying in short IF you are over matched so you get committed earlier and avoid making tough decisions after the flop. Most of the good players I know would buy in past the maximum, if allowed, just to make sure they had everyone covered. Why not learn to play no limit poker the way it was meant to be played - buying in full, outplaying your opponents, and using that stack to your advantage?

Also, I wonder, does PokerTracker hold me back? I love it but it's too easy to rely on it. Therefore, I'm going to be playing plenty of sessions on my laptop without PT.

I don't buy into the "don't use a HUD" at the lower levels. Yes, we all have to learn the fundamentals and we don't want to become reliant on a HUD, but we don't want to neglect it either. A HUD provides a TON of valuable information and it seems very counter intuitive to completely dismiss it. Just like we need to learn the fundamentals, so, too do we need to learn to use a HUD. But, remember that a HUD is just a tool to supplement decisions, not dictate them.

At any rate, good luck with your journey no matter what path you take.

[kevster]

A small 250 hand session with a small loss. Generally felt pleased with my focus, forcing myself to note take and work on ranges.

Would've seen a profit but for 2 coolers and the following two hands that I played badly.

Hand 1: Opp is 4/0 over 30 hands. I could've (and probably should've) saved myself a buck by not betting the flop. Anyone not 3-bet pre-flop here? Edit: Just noticed that my 3-bet is light - ugh!

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($11.90)
Button ($2)
Hero (SB) ($11.25)
BB ($1.05)
UTG ($2)
UTG+1 ($10.50)
MP1 ($7.70)
MP2 ($2.25)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A, K
2 folds, MP1 bets $0.40, 3 folds, Hero raises to $1, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.60

Flop: ($2.10) 2, Q, J (2 players)
Hero bets $1.25, MP1 calls $1.25

Turn: ($4.60) 8 (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets $2, Hero folds

Total pot: $4.60 | Rake: $0.20


Hand 2: Opp is 34/16 over 60 hands. I have a read that he calls all the way down with 2nd pair but that doesn't help in this hand. I'm way out of shape on this hand.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($10.05)
BB ($1.95)
UTG ($10.50)
UTG+1 ($2.60)
MP1 ($7.75)
MP2 ($23.15)
Hero (CO) ($11.75)
Button ($10)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K, Q
2 folds, MP1 bets $0.30, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.30, 3 folds

Flop: ($0.75) 8, 5, Q (2 players)
MP1 bets $0.50, Hero raises to $1.50, MP1 raises to $3, Hero calls $1.50

Turn: ($6.75) 6 (2 players)
MP1 bets $3.50, Hero folds

Total pot: $6.75 | Rake: $0.30

[LuckySlevin]

Hey Kev just a few thoughts from a lowly 2nl player

Hand 1. I'd be 3betting more, especially as you're out of position maybe 3.5 - 4 times his initial raise. Also I think that flop hits his range too well so I doubt I would have cbet that flop.

Hand 2. Interests me. I'm not sure what the others will say, but I'd be inclined to just put him all in on the flop, either that or if you're not prepared to stack off with TPGK just fold to his re-raise. That flop is so drawy when he raises you he could be doing so with the draw. At the turn he could be semi-bluffing but you just don't know where you stand that's why I'd have been tempted to get it in on the flop, or fold to his re-raise.

Good luck on the op i'm enjoying reading your progress

[kevster]

Thanks for the comments Slev. I agree pretty much 100% about Hand 1. Auto c-betting is probably a leak for me. I'm not saying I do it every time but I definitely do it sometimes without switching my brain on.

As for Hand 2, I'd love to hear more comments. It didn't help that this came at the end of the session where I maybe began to lose focus.

[lolzzz_321]

if you are raising the flop and calling his reraise in hand 1 i don't understand why u are folding that turn

[kevster]

if you are raising the flop and calling his reraise in hand 1 i don't understand why u are folding that turn

He doesn't reraise in hand 1.

[lolzzz_321]

sorry, hope you know i meant hand 2

[kevster]

if you are raising the flop and calling his reraise in hand 2 i don't understand why u are folding that turn

FYP. It's a fair point. My mistake is probably not putting him on a range here. My donkish thinking probably went something like, "wow that was some turn action and now he leads out with decent bet on thr turn. His stats suggest that he isn't a maniac, so my TPGK is probably no good".

I guess fold his flop re-raise, shove flop or shove turn would all have been better lines.

[kevster]

Ok, a good 300+ hand session for 14.6 PTBB/100. Nothing to get carried away with - I caught plenty of hands and flops - but nice to see things going in a positive direction for a change.

One hand of note......

No specific reads on opp but his stats are 30/6 over not enough hands. Was barrelling the turn a mistake? As played, should I have called his turn shove? Obviously a range is something that would help here and it's something I must starting forcing myself to do more of.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($10.95)
BB ($15.35)
Hero (UTG) ($10.20)
UTG+1 ($4.85)
MP1 ($11.55)
MP2 ($10)
MP3 ($2)
CO ($13.70)
Button ($2.55)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9, 9
Hero bets $0.40, UTG+1 calls $0.40, 7 folds

Flop: ($0.95) 6, 8, K (2 players)
Hero bets $0.70, UTG+1 calls $0.70

Turn: ($2.35) 5 (2 players)
Hero bets $1.50, UTG+1 raises to $3.75 (All-In), Hero folds

Total pot: $5.35 | Rake: $0.25

[kevster]

Ok, I'm crap at ranges and need both advice and practice. So, for fun, I'll take a stab at thinking through the last hand and if people could comment that would be very useful.

After he calls pre-flop:
22-AA, AJ+, QJ+ (20 hands)

After he calls post-flop:
66+, AK, AhJh, AhQh, KQ, QhJh (14 hands)

I've included some hands that villain would be expected to re-raise with. Can we discount these without reads?

Going on what I've got so far, we're only ahead of 4 hands out of 14 on the turn so leading is a mistake, no?

Comments are very welcome as to whether I'm way off here or not. I'm going to the BC to read up on some range posts that I saw a while back.

[dev]

It's a tough spot against an unknown. Bet/fold on the turn probably isn't the best way to go about it. I think I check/fold the turn and check/call a blank river. As played I think I'd have to call given 3.5:1ish odds on such a drawy board.

I think your ranges are probably a little on the tight side. Generally a 30/6 is a whim player, so you want some garbage in there.

[OhBollocks]

Yeah, put 30% into pokerstove and itll give you an indication of where to start.

Please dont evar change your avatar. Beyatch looks exactly like one we used to hang with after school. Nympho was into 4,6,8,10 ballers, girl-on-girl, 3somes, you name it. Anytime gal, god bless her.

They say shooldays are the best days of your life

[kevster]

I think your ranges are probably a little on the tight side. Generally a 30/6 is a whim player, so you want some garbage in there.

Yeah, put 30% into pokerstove and itll give you an indication of where to start.

Thanks guys. When I see simple stuff like this I feel like such a dumbass.

Been away for a few days with limited web access so not much to update about. I had another hand almost identical to the KQ hand above but this time with AK and a King on the flop. Down a buy-in as a result, Feel like I'm giving opps too much credit at 10NL. I'm not setting a definite rule but I thinking I'll be stacking off against unknowns or relative unknowns in future.

Anyway, I've got the rest of this week off work, so I'm going to get try and get plenty of sessions in. Let's see what happens

[kevster]

717 hands over two sessions for a frustrating -$6.15 or -4.29 BB/100

The thing that really fries me is that around $10 was lost in mistakes. I was up nicely on the first session having got a monster hand paid off but I then go and burn the profit and more in the second session.

I'm studying more than I ever have and I feel I'm adding good stuff to my game (albeit slowly) but sessions like this just drain the confidence.

Current BR: $482.45

[LuckySlevin]

At least you realise your mistakes kevstar, the donk would continue making the same mistakes over and over... good luck man!

[BadAssOutlaw]

At least you realise your mistakes kevstar, the donk would continue making the same mistakes over and over... good luck man!

exactly! ... you started off this operation in hopes that you would find what is keeping you from success in cash games, hoping that by posting this operation your flaws would show.. keep on it man and focus on your game and BELIEVE you are the better poker player when you're at the table..

one thing i've noticed from you and you mentioned this before, you need to stay POSITIVE.... going to the poker table thinking negative will only bring you negative results.. any time i have a live game to get ready for, i make sure i prepare myself and i'm going into the game with a good attitude... it may sound silly, but its true..

good luck man