OOP 3bet pot play 50NL

[Vi-Zer0Skill]

roughly 100bb stacks, 50NL is the stakes i currently play.

say some unknown opponent has been doing a lot of positional raising your first two-three orbits at the table. he hasn't done anything wild after the flop, so far unremarkable. you haven't played a hand with him yet, but now you 3bet his latest LP open from the small blind with some hand like Axs/SC and he calls. the hand is heads up.


assuming the flop isn't Axx/Kxx, you are definitely check/folding this first time if you miss.


1). we check A4s on some Axx flop... is our best line c/c flop c/f turn this first time?
2). should we check/raise or bet/fold an 8-9 out draw versus this seemingly aggressive opponent? how does board texture determine whether you bet/fold or c/r?

[bspahn]

3bet pots are one of the toughest things in poker, post flop, that's why i think so many regs depend on just 3/4 betting like crazy preflop because they basically dont' want to see flops.

i would say at the beginning we're better off just 3betting for value from the blinds vs LP openers, if you think they are wide do it with 99+ and AJ+ maybe even some KQs type hands. skip the Axs and sc type hands for now.

in general you want to cbet Q, K or A flops that aren't too connected. a ton of people love to flat 3bets from LP with hands like suited broadways, pairs and Ax type hands.

example: BTN opens he's like 22/18 and doesn't 4bet crazy, you 3bet for VALUE with AJs, flop comes Q73r and you bet... if turn A you gotta keep firing, if it checks down and he shows you a hand with value say 88 then make a note and you can barrel this person next time because it's so hard to continue in their place. GL

[meeloche]

I wouldn't 3 bet Axs ever unless I was doing it for value.

Your question is too specific to generalize. This is gameflow, opponent and board texture dependent. It also depends how you set up your ranges and your playing style in general.

Obviously this isn't' what your looking for but that's the reality.

bspahn I disagree that 3b pots are tough
raised pots are tougher because 3b pots are like "lol, I has AA I can not fold"
raised pots are like "I has AA, but he raised me, so I should call and eval turn"

when you play deeper it becomes tougher because then you have situations like "I has set, but a flush card hit and he's trying to rep it, should I call him down if the river doesn't pair the board?" not "I has set, shove it in"

I used to obsess about 3bing and 3b pots and they're difficult in their own way, but it's just different because you're trying to make a top pair/overpair/strong draw to go with

I disagree with 3bing 99 and AJ against people who you don't know
you're basically going to make them fold AT and 88 (standard folds vs. unknowns)
if someone buys in for a full stack and plays a raise/fold style PF I'd assume they are a reg

so just pick up A2s or 22 and 3b it
if you get called villain has a hand like AQ, AJ, KQ, or TT/99
or sometimes something like JTs/T9s/etc.

assume he would 4b hands like AK, JJ+
also assume he expects you to show up with AK, JJ+

why do we cbet Axx and Kxx? because they hit AK which is like half of our range and if we have JJ+ we have hands like TT beat already and JTs is obviously drawing to runner runner

why do we c/f JTx? because JTs just made two pair, AJ just made top pair, KQ just made an open-ender, AQ has two overcards and a gutshot, etc.

I wouldn't 3 bet Axs ever unless I was doing it for value.

Your question is too specific to generalize. This is gameflow, opponent and board texture dependent. It also depends how you set up your ranges and your playing style in general.

Obviously this isn't' what your looking for but that's the reality.

I do it because Axs has much better value as a 5b bluff than Axo
it's like a 4% difference in equity vs. offsuit

we also have blockers vs. hands that contain an ace
it's also not good to call with those hands pre oop

same reasons why I would 3b 22-55 OOP (except for blockers, but they are even better equity-wise for a 5b shove)

[Vi-Zer0Skill]

my preference when playing medium pairs OOP is to just call a LP open, because against most of my opponents they have to be played very passively in 3bet pots if my 3bet gets called.

really surprised to hear you don't 3bet Axs meeloche. looking at the hand from a postflop play perspective, we definitely have reverse implied odds and generally have to play this hand passively when we flop top pair. an alternative strat would be to just call the raise and value bet + pot build when we flop some piece.

[meeloche]

Axs are just so awesome to play multiway. I see no reason to ruin that by 3 betting to isolate somebody.

Axs are just so awesome to play multiway. I see no reason to ruin that by 3 betting to isolate somebody.

so bu opens, sb folds you're in the BB with Ac5c
you don't 3b why?

[Renton]

I don't see a problem with 3betting A2s from the sb. You can't super polarize an oop 3bet range because you see flops a lot more often than when 3betting ip. Therefore its good to 3bet with hands that have decent postflop potential that you aren't super comfortable coldcalling with (such as A2s or 86s or something). 3betting like A7o oop is a very bad play as most of us know.

Auto c/fing non Axx Kxx when 3betting from the sb seems horrible. Its even more horrible if you are 3betting with mostly Axx/Kxx type hands because that means you rarely are even able to cbet as a bluff. It's better to 3bet with hands that miss the A/Kxx flops so you can represent more often when you don't hit, and so that you hit flops you aren't supposed to.

Iopq, the best 5bet bluff hands are small pairs, and unless you are a monkey I doubt you'll need more combinations than small pairs to populate your 5bet bluff range, so 3betting Axs for that reason seems not good.

I don't see a problem with 3betting A2s from the sb. You can't super polarize an oop 3bet range because you see flops a lot more often than when 3betting ip. Therefore its good to 3bet with hands that have decent postflop potential that you aren't super comfortable coldcalling with (such as A2s or 86s or something). 3betting like A7o oop is a very bad play as most of us know.

Auto c/fing non Axx Kxx when 3betting from the sb seems horrible. Its even more horrible if you are 3betting with mostly Axx/Kxx type hands because that means you rarely are even able to cbet as a bluff. It's better to 3bet with hands that miss the A/Kxx flops so you can represent more often when you don't hit, and so that you hit flops you aren't supposed to.

Iopq, the best 5bet bluff hands are small pairs, and unless you are a monkey I doubt you'll need more combinations than small pairs to populate your 5bet bluff range, so 3betting Axs for that reason seems not good.

you said in another post the stack off ranges of BU vs. blinds is TT+,AK

let's see a situation where bu opens, bb 3bs, button 4bs small, bb shoves

Hand 0: 69.065% { TT+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 30.935% { 44 }

Hand 0: 68.917% { TT+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 31.083% { A5s }

so it's one of many good reasons to 3b A5s, but not the only one

[Renton]

your frequency of being 4bet bluffed will be considerably higher when you don't have an ace in your hand.

Theres also more of a tendency for people to slowplay with big pairs in these situations, so what ends up happening is that their 4bet value range instead of being even distributed TT+ AK, it will be TT+ AK weighted very heavily toward AK. I think 3betting with the automatic intention of 5betting is considerably more profitable (or less spew depending on the player) with 44 than with A5s.

your frequency of being 4bet bluffed will be considerably higher when you don't have an ace in your hand.

Theres also more of a tendency for people to slowplay with big pairs in these situations, so what ends up happening is that their 4bet value range instead of being even distributed TT+ AK, it will be TT+ AK weighted very heavily toward AK. I think 3betting with the automatic intention of 5betting is considerably more profitable (or less spew depending on the player) with 44 than with A5s.

but your 5b shove will have more fold equity because you block their AA/AK combinations (despite 44 being a favorite over AK you'd rather have them fold than picking up that extra combo of AK and calling it off because of pot odds)

so I think it's more of a gameflow thing than "oh look, you're getting 4b bluffed 1% more and getting slowplayed 2% of the time, A5s is a definite fold and 44 is a definite shove"

[Renton]

they are both reasonable hands to do it with, but the thing is if you want to have a fairly balanced range its not very smart to 3b/5b every single Axs and small pair, so you may as well do it with only the ones that are slightly best.

You have a point about the increased fold equity from blocking AK/AA, but I think the improved equity when called makes up for it, and I also think that even though Axs has the effect of blocking AK/AA, it also blocks the Axo combinations that people tend to 4bet bluff with a ton, so its sort of a wash.

they are both reasonable hands to do it with, but the thing is if you want to have a fairly balanced range its not very smart to 3b/5b every single Axs and small pair, so you may as well do it with only the ones that are slightly best.

You have a point about the increased fold equity from blocking AK/AA, but I think the improved equity when called makes up for it, and I also think that even though Axs has the effect of blocking AK/AA, it also blocks the Axo combinations that people tend to 4bet bluff with a ton, so its sort of a wash.

I'll keep 3bing a lot
and when they time down before folding they're definitely thinking about 4bing me light so I might just shove it light if they 4b me the next time I 3b them, even if I hold 65s which has worse equity than either 44 or A5s, but I think I have better than average fold equity by trying to predict the timing of their bluff

but if they keep folding quickly, I will probably fold to the first 4b because it's likely to be strong, even if I have Axs or a small pp

so might as well be 3bing the highest number of hands that have good equity when called in the first place

[Parasurama]

It's also super tilting the 18% of the time your small pp beats their overpair.

[Vi-Zer0Skill]

your frequency of being 4bet bluffed will be considerably higher when you don't have an ace in your hand.

Theres also more of a tendency for people to slowplay with big pairs in these situations, so what ends up happening is that their 4bet value range instead of being even distributed TT+ AK, it will be TT+ AK weighted very heavily toward AK. I think 3betting with the automatic intention of 5betting is considerably more profitable (or less spew depending on the player) with 44 than with A5s.

ty for the potent information... to my surprise several times i've 5bet shoved AA/KK over a 4bet and gotten folds... at 50NL!

[Parasurama]

Although there's some good discussion in this thread I feel like nobody answered OP's questions so I'm going to try

Why are you "definitely check-folding" the first time if you miss? I would think you'd want to bet (not on every board) and establish a more aggressive image.

1. c/c with A4s on Axx with initiative oop? I guess if you want people to put you on KK and barrel you. But this question is too vague to answer properly. It's really opponent dependent. If people are going to turn pocket pairs into bluffs then c/c c/f is bad. If people are more likely to try to get to showdown with pocket pairs and won't put you on an A after you check the flop then checking is good. In general though, I'm going to say you should take more aggressive lines "the first time."

2. This is kind of a weird question. Why are the only two options b/f and c/r? Of the two c/r is vastly superior but what about b/c and b/3b? If he's really aggressive, betting smallish and shoving over a raise is great, especially if the board is all low cards or has one high card so he can put you on AK or a pair smaller than the high card.

c/r is a tricky idea because the flops that are good to c/r (the flops that our opponent misses or hits marginally) are also good to bet, especially if he's going to check behind TT on Jxx. Look for situations where your opponent will likely bet with a weakish range if checked to.

Parasurama: a good idea is to c/shove a big draw on a JTx, QJx, QTx board, especially if it's like a flush draw because we're going to be c/fing those boards since they hit villain's range hard
so we expect him to bet 100% of his range since it's well known that he can have a lot more KQ/JTs/AQ hands that hit those flops
this way we protect our c/f range which we'd like to show down in the future