Comments: Renton's 169 hand SS-NLHE ring strat: Postflop II

[apunisher]

Discuss: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-40404.htm


very nice

[jyms]

Thanks Renton, It must have taken alot of time out of your playing schedule and that can't be easy or +EV, but greatly appreciated. They are my new bible. When I have a BR I will donate to the cause.LOL

[Vrax]

This guy doesn't know shit about shit. I am going to make an article that blows Renton's article away.


Haha, just kidding.

Good post, I was waiting for it. That condensed and informative way of writing (typical scenarios for most hands) cleared up some concepts I was trying to solve (when to go for checkraise on turn - for example) and I got much more confidence in my game because I play similar way.

Also good to see that 100NL is beatable with fairly straightforward style, I can't wait when I will be rolled to try it on higher stakes. I guess THAT is the solid tight-AGGRESSIVE (not nitty, not maniacal, not stupid but true smart aggressive) way. Isn't it?

[Renton]

100nl is not really tricky at all. It IS the first stake where you will find regulars though.

[Lukie]

I need to get my lazy ass around to read these 3 guides.

[IowaSkinsFan]

100nl is not really tricky at all. It IS the first stake where you will find regulars though.

uhhh what? I find regulars at 25 nl all the time.

[Renton]

i mean regulars that beat the game

[Halv]

I really liked the Draw section. Please write a "don't make stupid river calls" section next kthx.

[spoonitnow]

Please write a "don't make stupid river calls" section next kthx.

[Renton]

I need to get my lazy ass around to read these 3 guides.

Yes your and others' thoughts would be an enormous help. I'd like to also refine it and add to the "common concepts" section over time.

I am still a learning player so I'd like this to continue to evolve as I do.

[jyms]

sorry I posted this in the sticky by accident (why aren't they locked???)

Renton, you touch on something here that I have been wondering about alot since playing more positional and opening my hand requirements under certain conditions.

If you learned about pot odds like I suggested at the beginning of the guide, you probably think that if he bets 2/3 pot on the flop you don’t have proper odds to call with only eight outs. This is not true for a reason we have already mentioned earlier in the guide, and that reason is implied odds. Almost all flop bets are worth calling with concealed 8 out draws.

I understand the implied odds on PP but, OESD?? I have been stacked on several occasions holding a set or top 2 pair by raising pot sized bets after the flop and 2/3 or so on turns feeling that they are on a OESD. And I figure if they hit then I have to pay off their all-ins because they wouldn't possibly chase with the odds they were getting so it must be just bottom 2 pair or a lower set and if it was a draw it was -EV so I will win in the long term. Is it actually +EV to call these bets and to what extent. I'm sure its a sliding scale. If its 1:7 for sets and implied odds are 1:15 on effective stacks, ( and we understand that thinking from other discussion threads). What would implied odds be on presumably a OESD after the flop? I have been afraid to actually try this, thinking it's just me and I'm on a downswing and they are getting lucky 0n -EV plays, but this has me thinking it's an option for people getting into positional suited connectors and gappers. I take it that the books are wrong as far as NL thinking is concerned ( since other than HOH they are almost all based in limit) and I am not thinking in terms of NL ring and the ability to play for stacks as opposed to 3bets on turn and rivers.???

[Renton]

Its a complicated issue. Basically, you have to rate your villain. If he's a bad player who gives away his hands on the flop, then its hugely +EV to call a PSB on the flop with an OESD. You stand to win a stack if you hit, its that simple. However, against a tough player, you need to throw pot odds even further out the window and represent a made hand by raising the flop, or you should just fold. Don't be afraid to fold the flop against players like this.

It sucks to be making breakeven EV plays with suited connectors after the flop. because we took the worst of it preflop. Something has to give, and we need to make up that lost EV.

[TerryToma]

Thanks for this series Renton. I have tried at times to emulate a lot of your style at 25NL. I was wondering your thoughts on how you would play different at the lower 25NL stakes, than you currently do.

For example, KQo/AKo have been bad hands for me recently, as the c-bets get called down too much, and when I do hit I face a tough choice on whether to keep going deep with TPGK/TPTK.

Also, I would like to know more about why you raise PP's PF. Is it to build a pot when you hit your set? Or to take it down on a C-bet. Or are these not mutually exclusive?

[Renton]

Also, I would like to know more about why you raise PP's PF. Is it to build a pot when you hit your set? Or to take it down on a C-bet. Or are these not mutually exclusive?

It:

1. Increases your raising range. When you are raising 8% of hand from under the gun, a solid player can't put you on strength.

2. Increases your fold equity on the flop.

3. Defines hands preflop. You don't want to be in a race with a unusual str8 when you flop your set.

4. Increases fold equity on the flop, and improves your metagame on the flop (solid players will start to call your c-bets with weaker pairs, giving you more value for your top pair hands.

5. Builds a pot so you can get all in when you hit your set without forcing your opponent to put in two raises (he'll just have to put in one raise if its a raised pot preflop).

[biondino]

Very nice, Renton, To think I was once sat at a $25NL table with you (you doubled up and left). I am particularly impressed by your tactics for making the most money on a winning hand - this is the area I feel I'm weakest so I'll be studying this carefully.

Do you have any specific advice about adjusting these tactics for $25 or $50 games? For example, there are fewer re-raises and a lot of weak players who fold often more easily than one would like - how can you maximise pots against these players?

[biondino]

"WSOP 2007 - 24th place ($567,350) - Barrington Rentonsworth IV busts out of the main event when his audacious check raise push with top boat is beaten by a runner runner straight flush from Zairean pro Asoolb Gorilla"

[maverickai]

Renton wrote: "Eighth Scenario: A tight aggressive player raises to 7 in MP and you call on the button with AQs. The flop is AQ4 rainbow.

Don’t get too excited. The flop might as well have been A74. You only beat one more hand in villains range by having two pair (AK). Just play it like you’d play TPTK, and this includes folding it in spots you’d fold TPTK. "

Can someone explain to me the meaning why the floop might as well have been A74? I thought flopping a two pair of such high ranking is pretty powerful compared to other two pairs. It would be pretty hard to laydown such a two pair for me.

Thanks.

[Cocco_Bill]

Renton wrote: "Eighth Scenario: A tight aggressive player raises to 7 in MP and you call on the button with AQs. The flop is AQ4 rainbow.

Don’t get too excited. The flop might as well have been A74. You only beat one more hand in villains range by having two pair (AK). Just play it like you’d play TPTK, and this includes folding it in spots you’d fold TPTK. "

Can someone explain to me the meaning why the floop might as well have been A74? I thought flopping a two pair of such high ranking is pretty powerful compared to other two pairs. It would be pretty hard to laydown such a two pair for me.

Thanks.

Yes, I agree with this objection. AK by far the most probable hand villain has here if he shows interest in the pot. There is only one combo of QQ and AA left which are the only hands you are scared of and 12 combos of AK. Your hand is good the vast majority of the time here and I will play for stacks. AQ on a A74 flop I won't against most opponents.

That said, I haven't actually read the guide yet, only these comments.

[Renton]

I kinda brought that up as a poor example. The point was, the fact that you have two pair makes little difference, because you'd probably win a lot of money from hands like AT and AJ, which you'd have ordinarily beaten on an A74 flop.

[Cocco_Bill]

I kinda brought that up as a poor example. The point was, the fact that you have two pair makes little difference, because you'd probably win a lot of money from hands like AT and AJ, which you'd have ordinarily beaten on an A74 flop.

A better example would be AK on a AK7 board.

The fact that you now beat AK with AQ in your example is very significant since its a big part of his range when he plays a big pot.

[Cocco_Bill]

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

9,900 games 0.015 secs 660,000 games/sec

Board: As Qc 7d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 69.1010 % 68.90% 00.20% { AcQd }
Hand 2: 30.8990 % 30.70% 00.20% { AA, QQ, AKs, AKo }

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

12,870 games 0.005 secs 2,574,000 games/sec

Board: As Qc 7d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 57.0241 % 56.87% 00.16% { AcQd }
Hand 2: 42.9759 % 42.82% 00.16% { AA, QQ, 77, AKs, AKo }

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

18,810 games 0.016 secs 1,175,625 games/sec

Board: As Qc 7d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 67.8841 % 67.65% 00.23% { AcQd }
Hand 2: 32.1159 % 31.88% 00.23% { AA, QQ, 77, AKs, A7s, AKo, A7o }


Looking good eh?

[k3ys3r]

eXcellent article. thanx

[only_bridge]

Very nice article thx a lot, cant wait to put it into practice on the microstakes tables.

[surviva316]

Great article. People always say that you have to play for money and not pots, but this article really put that in perspective for me.

As far as C-bets working at 25nl, i've recently tried raising more like $2 rather than just $1. The standard raise is 4-5BB's depending on how many limpers there are, but since beginners don't pay much attention to the size of the pot, this isn't as important at lower limits. All they see is meh it only cost me another $1, so i might as well do it with this half decent hand, and you need to keep them more honest than that. if you bet closer to $2 you'll find that your c-bets work more often and it doesn't even really increase your variance that much because you're still likely to have the better hand

[MichaelGotAA]

Another brilliant article. I will be reading this again.

[flintyglint]

what do the ratios refer to here?

" If a 45/14 player busts you with a set vs your AA then you probably played the hand well. If a 15/4 player does, well then you probably screwed up somewhere. "

[JKDS]

the ratios are hud information given in percents. unless otherwise stated, the numbers are "volunarilly put money in pot"/"raised pre flop/ aggression factor" with aggression factor occasionally left out. A 45/14 player for instance limps a fuck ton, and raises quite a bit as well.

[flintyglint]

"Thirteenth Scenario: Unknown in MP raises to 7 and after one LP caller you call on the button with 88. The flop comes 844 rainbow. Both villains check.

Top boat or better are the only monster hands you should seriously consider slowplaying. I will probably check here, but if the check the turn I have to bet. Theres no chance of getting all in with our hand unless we get some money in before the river. In this scenario I will still OFTEN bet. Slowplaying is a very overrated practice and is usually the hallmark of a weak player whose only poker training is the movie Rounders."

why is there "no chance of getting all in unless we get some money in before the river". what prevents us from going all in any damn time we want? this question keeps coming up for me as i read this and reveals my complete ignorance of the timing of going all in, i think

[tunah]

why is there "no chance of getting all in unless we get some money in before the river". what prevents us from going all in any damn time we want? this question keeps coming up for me as i read this and reveals my complete ignorance of the timing of going all in, i think

Obviously you can shove at any time, but a massive overbet will very rarely get called.

[okiman]

why is there "no chance of getting all in unless we get some money in before the river". what prevents us from going all in any damn time we want? this question keeps coming up for me as i read this and reveals my complete ignorance of the timing of going all in, i think

Obviously you can shove at any time, but a massive overbet will very rarely get called.

This. How can you expect to get called on the river if you bet $193 into a $24 pot after the flop and turn were checked through? However, if you get a pot-sized bet called by both players on the turn, now you've got $169 left to bet into an $96 pot and some worse hands might call your river all-in. Plus, you might get check-raised on the turn since it looks like you are trying to steal an orphan pot here with position.

[EasyPoker]

Great post, but it's crazy to suggest that this is for total beginners! There's so much jargon in here that most beginners would put it down and never come back!

Just a question.

In the section entitled "Top pair with AJ+, KJ+" Renton says:

"If there is a flush draw on the board, your top pair gains significant value, since you have draws beat and they will call you anyway"

NB - Before you answer my question below, please see the assumption I made about the above statement, just to verify if it's there I've gone wrong:

1) The phrase "flush draw on the board" means the community cards ONLY

So:

What does he mean by since you have draws beat? How can a top pair have draws beat, even with a flush draw on the board?

[TonyB73]

Flush draw on the board means two cards of the same suit are on the board, so if villain's hole cards are of that same suit then he has a flush draw.

[EasyPoker]

SO: What does he mean by "since you have draws beat?"

How can a top pair have a flush draw beat?

[TonyB73]

SO: What does he mean by "since you have draws beat?"

How can a top pair have a flush draw beat?

WTF are you talking about??

A flush draw is nothing until it becomes a flush. Obv. So unless villain has something else as well as his flush draw, he's behind top pair.

[EasyPoker]

So a flush draw is nothing but a prospect of villain getting a flush, rather than villain knowing he has one?

Please refrain with the "WTF" kind of language, I'm just trying to learn from articles that clearly AREN'T aimed at total beginners.