non-showdown

[daven]

fairly standard non-showdon rate among good winning full ring players is between -1 and -2 ptBB/100. I noted this a while, at the same time noting that i run around -5ptBB/100 in no-showdown.

Anyway, i've moved down in stakes. Nothing much seems to have changed - the graph below illustrates. win-rate of a little over 5ptBB/100 is nothing great, but it's not totally awful. Non-showdown rate is more like -8ptBB/100. Sure, 25nl is a lot about simple stack-a-donk, but this seems ridiculous.

Interested in thoughts, i'm writing a list of the reasons for this gulf between showdown and non-showdown. I think i should address this leak, as tempting as it is to simply move back up...
any ideas?

[badgers]

there's so many different things this could be and it isn't necessarily a leak..

Can you post some stats?

Examples of what it could be is -

Not vbetting thin enough especially on river
Playing fit/fold in raised pots/ setmining without odds
Calling 3bets too much and folding a lot
Calling one street with the intention of folding the next too much (for instance facing a c/minraise when villain is likely to follow through on turn loads but you call because you don't want to fold to a minraise - I used to be guilty of this a lot..)
4bet bluffing too much
etc.etc.


There's a load of other things, but at 25nl losing a lot at non-sd is probably optimal anyway since there will be loads of calling stations.. Post stats!

[daven]

Can you post some stats?

sure thing

1 - Not vbetting thin enough especially on river
2 - Playing fit/fold in raised pots/ setmining without odds
3 - Calling 3bets too much and folding a lot
4 - Calling one street with the intention of folding the next too much (for instance facing a c/minraise when villain is likely to follow through on turn loads but you call because you don't want to fold to a minraise - I used to be guilty of this a lot..)
5 - 4bet bluffing too much

i think 1, 2, 4 sound about right. I think it's time to go through all the non-showdown hands where i lost between 5 and 25bb. I may be some time...

There's a load of other things, but at 25nl losing a lot at non-sd is probably optimal anyway since there will be loads of calling stations.

could be true, but the rate seems crazy, and it is similar at 100nl

[jyms]

Two things about non showdowns and they need to be addressed separately. Leaks losing too much in non showdown pots where we fold and where we don't win enough in non showdown pots via thin value betting or bluffing. The river thin value bets can make a real difference in your line but also be aware that it is impossible to have a non showdown line go up or run even vs calling stations and fish that don't like to fold for obvious reasons.

[eragotte]

increase your red line by going all in every time you have the worst hand on the river. it will sky rocket.

in all seriousness though, narrow the gap between vpip and pfr, bring that cbet up to like 70, barrel more turns, fold more to 3bets, ESPECIALLY oop

[Micro2Macro]

you're too passive postflop given your vpip/pfr

[eragotte]

redlineaments.... btw im 300 below aiev so i dont suck quite this bad