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 Originally Posted by Donachello
Wow... Okay, obviously preflop is fine since AK is an almost auto 3bet. Flop. BEFORE you bet look at the board. What could you possibly be folding out here that raised UTG? Literally nothing except maybe AQo if your opponent is at all competent. Clearly this flop doesn't hit your 3betting range which I would be assuming as the villain is like AJ+ 99+ and suited connectors OTB. So lets look at the ranges then. His TT is ahead of everything except JJ+ and the random connector with an 8 in it.
Seriously. He is giving you a free card when you have air and you tried to bluff an UTG raise/caller on an xxx board.
The Cbet sizing is fine as far as Cbetting goes since in a 3bet pot you want your Cbets to be around 1/2 pot or a little more. But the flop bluff- shove is just atrocious.
sincerely, i'm not picking on you to be an ass or anything, but because just having me take the ten minutes out of my day to address some things here is something i wish i'd gotten when i was in the early stages of learning about playing 3b pots (/run on sentence)
1. the likely range for a tagg 3b'ing an UTG open wouldn't be AJ+, 99+ and suited connectors. if we're button here (barring any kind of extreme dynamic), our value range should be very thin (KK+, obv, and QQ is usually good, JJ-TT is good against a lot of villains who call too wide); and our bluffing range should pretty much exclusively be hands with a lot of blockers to his continuing range like KQo and AJo. my standard flatting range against a positionally aware tagg who folds as much as to be expected when their UTG open is 3b OOP, is AQ+, 22-QQ and SCs. we can profitably flat SC's because villain has a strong range, and we're getting a good price in a spot where we're guaranteed position. 3b'ing SC's here isn't a good idea for a couple of reasons, but this point is already getting long.
ANYWAY, as you noticed, i put AQ+ into our standard flatting range. i think it's bad to consider AK as "an auto 3b," and this is the spot where we should be MOST considering a flat. like TT-JJ, i 3b AQ and AK if i think villain is calling exploitably wide, or if i have some kind of extreme 3b'ing dynamic or read that leads me to believe i can profitably stack off in this spot (i don't know if this is EVER true for AQ, though).
2. would just like to again emphasize that the flop sizing IS in fact bad because it sets up a turn pot of 6.15 (in fact, less at sites that take rake out at each street) with 7 dollars left behind. it doesn't get much more awkward than that. what we should bet here has little to do with "it's standard to bet 1/2 pot or slightly more." in most 3b pots with ~100bb effective stacks, we have a decision on the flop on whether to get the money in on two streets or just one, and to adjust our flop bet sizing accordingly.
if we're not setting up stack sizes such that we will get the money in over 3 streets on this board with our hand, then we're NEVER doing it, as this board is as dry as possible, especially considering ranges. but even putting that aside, 1.80 is NEVER going to be our best option. our choices are between 1.20 flop -> setting up 4.95 turn with 7.60 left behind, so we can 2.50 turn -> setting up 9.95 river with 5.10 left behind OR 2.10-2.50 flop -> setting up a PSB shove on the turn.
3. i agree that not cbetting this turn is certainly an option because we beat everything that folds to a cbet anyway. whether or not i bet it depends on postflop reads i have on villain, e.g.: will he call with hands we beat? if we check back, will he make life hard for us on the turn and river (in other words, is he going to turn hands like AQ into a bluff if that hand is in his range in the first place?).
btw, i played with stove a bit and found that Outlaw is right. it really doesn't take many combos of bluffs for villain to get the 25% equity needed to call. i would never c/r TT here to begin with, though, unless i thought that villain was completely apeshit bananas (which apparently you are).
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10nl 3bet pot two ftr'ers
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