Dear FTR : Rakeback

[daouid]

Dear FTR admins,

I have registered my fulltilt account using your referral code "FLOPTURNRIVER" on summer 2007, since then, I luckely managed to build my bankroll from freerolls, and today I am considering playing more time.

My problem is regarding the rake, im having a tough time at the rush poker tables, and the rake is killing my ROI.

I have discovered the various rakeback offer available, but since i affiliated myself to flopturnriver during subscription, full tilt wont let me get any rakeback.

My only option left is to come here and ask you (I tryed via email with no luck) if we could negotiate the following:

I would like you to release me from your contract with full tilt.

Please let me know your stance on this point.

Best regards,

Daouid

[BooG690]

Full Tilt won't give you rakeback even if FTR DID release you from their grasps.

Also, negotiations usually involve something from the other party. What do you have to offer? Perhaps noods of your girlfriend?

P.S. I, in no way, speak for FTR. I am just an idiot.

[lolzzz_321]

What's your Rush Poker ROI, bro?

[daouid]

Hello,

I have spoken with Full tilt support and they would change my affiliate if FTR would agrea to release me.

Im really looking to get in contact with FTR staff regarding this matter, since I have stopped using my Full Tilt account since I discovered my rake issue.

To answer your question, here are my stats for rush omaha high low .25-.50 blinds


"BB/100","Hands","Rake"
"5.49","6,732","$953.60"

I had a lucky streak, im not complaining about my BB/100 hands rate, but as you can see,

my contributed rake is 953.6$ , 27% of that is roughly 250$ , i think to numbers speak for themselves.

Regards

[kiwiMark]

but how much did you invest

[daouid]

I "invested" nothing, i risked a portion of my bankroll and got a positive BB/100 hand rate of return.

[daouid]

A member pointed out to me that i seemed to beg to be released, so i want to clarify the situation:

I can give you $x and you release me, in which case you gain $x, OR you can not release me, and I stop using FTP, in which case you gain $0

I have already made arrangements to have access to a rakeback'ed account
but im sentimentally linked to this account, so that's why im willing to buy myself out of this affiliation.

[ZeroHero]

I have the same situation and request. 10NL on FTP is a joke without rakeback, and I am only a poor college student.

Please negotiate releasing me out of goodwill or for a small donation. My current account will not be generating further rake. I have also made arrangement to have access to a rakebacked account and/or a pokerstars account.

[kiwiMark]

Should prolly delete this thread before anyone else gets the idea...

[jyms]

There is no idea, it's not happening. FTR is in the business of giving/trading poker strat and info for people to come to the site and click links. This site is here for us to talk poker because of those affiliate links. There certainly not going to make a deal for $10NL RB. Why would they release a huge potential income for a couple bucks.

[ZeroHero]

There is no idea, it's not happening. FTR is in the business of giving/trading poker strat and info for people to come to the site and click links. This site is here for us to talk poker because of those affiliate links. There certainly not going to make a deal for $10NL RB. Why would they release a huge potential income for a couple bucks.

jyms, you need to reread what you just wrote.

The site that you are modding for (im guessing 'tilting mod' is mod title), does make money through the affiliate ads to poker sites...yes, but when does the money come in?

FTR is either paid 'per acquisition' (CPA) or 'by revenue' (PRP)
https://affiliates.fulltiltpoker.com/affiliates/about

If there is a desire for intelligent poker talk here, it must be 'by revenue', (if its 'per acquisition' all the better, then im a dead weight for FTR)

since it's a % of future revenue (rake) FTP collects from me, FTR making money from this individual (me) depends solely on whether the individual plays (and pays rake) on the account or not.

if FTR doesnt care the amount a 10NL-25NL and $10-$26 sng grinder is bringing in...thats just lol, seriously now the content on this site...I looked at the titles of the articles here (preflop starting hands? oh boy...full ring forum all stakes one post today so far?), the main site caters to super new casual players (me signing up), or confused/lost semi-casual players. So my demographic is an important part of the revenue stream and your income if they pay you any, jyms.

Im not begging, I told you I am keeping my options open, whether its Poker Stars or Tilt. But its going to benefit everyone (maybe even your salary) if im forced to move on.

Pros for FTR aggreing to share their rake % with me: Continued solid income for FTR, least hassle for me. I pay in the neighborhood of a couple K per month for rake and am finishing school now, so hopefully grinding 3x that this summer

is it clear now? How can I get my request to an admin or owner?

[Keith]

if FTR doesnt care the amount a 10NL-25NL and $10-$26 sng grinder is bringing in...thats just lol, seriously now the content on this site...I looked at the titles of the articles here (preflop starting hands? oh boy...full ring forum all stakes one post today so far?), the main site caters to super new casual players (me signing up), or confused/lost semi-casual players. So my demographic is an important part of the revenue stream and your income if they pay you any, jyms.
Im not begging, I told you I am keeping my options open, whether its Poker Stars or Tilt. But its going to benefit everyone (maybe even your salary) if im forced to move on.

So you took advantage of the freerolls (where FTR puts money from there income in to fund those freerolls )and now that you have managed to get a bankroll going you want to opt out of the cycle and not help other players to get the same chance. The mods here are all voluntary and do it to help put something back to the community that has helped them improve as poker players.

You laugh at the articles, and pick one out that is aimed at beginners. Generally players get to a level of competence where its refining there play , plugging there leaks that is how they will continue to improve. These tend to develope from discussions about how individual hands have been played rather than an article. You say it caters for casual lost players , By saying that you have proven that you have never even looked at the posts in the strategy forums. There are some players here well out of your league and they stay and discuss so that they can continue to improve.

Pros for FTR aggreing to share their rake % with me: Continued solid income for FTR, least hassle for me. I pay in the neighborhood of a couple K per month for rake and am finishing school now, so hopefully grinding 3x that this summer

is it clear now? How can I get my request to an admin or owner?

So instead of getting the rakeback that everyone else can get , you want a cut of the income that FTR gets as well . So instead of being in the position you would have been in without FTR you want to profit from it as well.
If you are paying a couple of K rake per month at 10NL there is something seriously wrong with the way that you are playing. Maybe you should get involved in the strategy forums and try and improve.FTR has its own costs to cover , server fees, bandwidth, prize money etc. You took advantage of this investment and should have done your own research before committing to sign up to a poker site through them.

You say that you'll be playing through another account if not. You know full well that its against FTPs terms and conditions so you're hardly an ethical player.

[ZeroHero]

Thanks for your response, I was beginning to think there is nobody serious here. However, I'm pretty disturbed by almost every single sentence you wrote to me. Please have a look at my responses, I think you either misunderstood me completely or are just jerking me around for asking for whats fair.

I certainly don't think I owe this site anything, and disrupting my involuntary sponsorship of this site should be my option - I find it financially does not make sense for me to do so. I do not use and have not used any of your resources, save looking at a couple articles when I first stumbled here.

So you took advantage of the freerolls (where FTR puts money from there income in to fund those freerolls )

I never participated in FTR freerolls. To clarify, I used the FTR bonus code for the $600 deposit bonus. This code is unique but the bonus is the same as any other poker related website will offer. This bonus is even available directly from FTP's site with their own code. It is simply a way to tag a player to an affiliate, so the affiliate can get paid for bringing a new player to FTP

and now that you have managed to get a bankroll going you want to opt out of the cycle and not help other players to get the same chance.

See above. I funded my own roll and joined a training site.

I do not understand how my situation is effecting other players' opportunity to deposit (the only chance/benefit I got from your code).

The mods here are all voluntary and do it to help put something back to the community that has helped them improve as poker players.

Makes sense, a paycheck was only speculation. It's great to have such dedicated staff.

You laugh at the articles, and pick one out that is aimed at beginners.

No disrespect but if i'm going to get a response like jyms, im going to make it clear that I think given the target demographic of the main pages on this site, it may be worth all our while(s?) to consider that am financially supporting this site much more than the average affiliate partners you have. I am sure most are not the type that post on the forum. I'm sure you have many more who just grabbed the code and went on to play or lurked.

Generally players get to a level of competence where its refining there play , plugging there leaks that is how they will continue to improve. These tend to develope from discussions about how individual hands have been played rather than an article. You say it caters for casual lost players ,

Let me be clear, I said the main site caters to the beginners, not the forum. I then went on to question the effectiveness of your forum if posts are infrequent.

By saying that you have proven that you have never even looked at the posts in the strategy forums.

I guess I could've been clearer, there is some good strat on the forums but it seems to be every now and then that people post.

There are some players here well out of your league and they stay and discuss so that they can continue to improve.

I'm well aware of that. However if we go back to the issue at hand and look at the skill level of all the players you have managed to refer to FullTilt through your bonus code, I am sure this intelligent group of grinders constitute a small percentage of your affiliate players. However this is irrelevant because we do not know if the forum posters are mostly or all affiliate players.

One might speculate that the more clever players who end up posting and plowing through hands may have been astute enough to sign up through an affiliate that provided them with rakeback.

So instead of getting the rakeback that everyone else can get, you want a cut of the income that FTR gets as well .

I hope I'm not misinterpreting what you mean here. If you mean now, well I cannot get rakeback while I am attached to FTR as my affiliate, which does not currently (to my knowledge) offer rakeback. If you mean before (while signing up), yes I would have very much appreciated to be told about rakeback, or a warning from you about this.

As far as getting a cut of the income. Frankly it is my money that is going into your hands, and I am not a charity. As far as I understand I can opt out of playing on FTP, however it makes more sense for both me and FTR to find a mutually beneficial solution that allows me to have rakeback and allows FTR an income as a gift for snagging me when I first learned about poker and was clueless about how to proceed, sign up, know about rakeback etc. Yes, I want a cut. My other options involve less rake or more rakeback, so don't think I will continue this way. This is the prisoner's dilemna as I'm sure you know. We can both benefit more by cooperating than by agreeing not to cooperate and screwing each other over. At this moment we do not cooperate and we have not yet agreed not to cooperate, and FTR is the big winner and I am the big loser.



I've donated a tidy sum to running your site (you're welcome), without using any of your bandwith or freeroll seats. I'm a college student, seriously...are you telling me I am twisting your arm?? you guys are twisting my arm and I'm not going to just take it.

So instead of being in the position you would have been in without FTR you want to profit from it as well.

I never wanted to be in a position with FTR. Maybe you should explain to your viewers when they use your bonus code that they will be screwed for life in terms of rakeback. It's virtually impossible for a beginner to profit from 10NL and down without rakeback on FTP, you should know that.

I want to profit from it? You've been profiting from me. I want to stop getting ripped off!

If you are paying a couple of K rake per month at 10NL there is something seriously wrong with the way that you are playing.

I am a degen and breakeven player on the cash tables. SNG 18-45 player is my strong point. I play a lot, and I'm f*** up my grades because of it, happy?

Maybe you should get involved in the strategy forums and try and improve.

I'm on 2+2 and cardrunners, and regularly talk strategy with several friends who grind online. I dont really appreciate the snide remark either. It's completely irrelevant, and you mention ethics I noticed.

FTR has its own costs to cover , server fees, bandwidth, prize money etc.

Good thing I helped you out over the past two years or so, you're welcome. But I'm not a charity. I was fooled, young and naive, and without a clue about rakeback. Now I'm no longer donating, sorry.

You took advantage of this investment and should have done your own research before committing to sign up to a poker site through them.

NB: I have not used any of your bandwith, articles (save 2), forums, freerolls anything. Only the non-unique deposit bonus code. I agree, I wish I had done my research and known about rakeback. I've made sure to tell everyone I know opening an account about this issue. Somehow I assumed this information would be made available in your friendly guide to getting started with an account. Otherwise how should I know to look for this type of information? I got suckered, lets not beat around the bush.

You say that you'll be playing through another account if not. You know full well that its against FTPs terms and conditions so you're hardly an ethical player.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves here.

1. My personal ethics are irrelevant
2. Continuing to donate rake without rakeback is simply not an option any more.
3. Another account could mean... my new pokerstars account (going good so far, SnGs are much softer, cash is tighter but postflop play is poor, however things are not looking good for cash with the new 'shallow' tables)
4. I am well aware of FTPs terms and conditions and have already received a warning for having a second account (tried that a year ago)


As I said, I'm not here to argue, I'm here to find a mutually beneficial solution. I would appreciate if you (or any other mod) could help me get in touch with the right person. It would be best for me, and great for the site as well!

[kiwiMark]

Snide comments about the forum aside, in my eyes everything you've said thus far is logical and sound. However it's pretty clear that FTR is not going to help you out on this one - whether they should or not - so it's probably time to just move on switch to PokerStars.

The only reason I can see that FTR wouldn't grant this request is that it's 1.) not in their power to do so, 2.) they don't believe you're going to stop playing on FTP if they don't or 3.) They're concerned about setting a precedent of paying rakeback to players who kick up enough fuss.

of the three, the latter seems the most likely, which is why it seems like it would make the most sense for this thread to stop existing...

[ZeroHero]

Snide comments about the forum aside, in my eyes everything you've said thus far is logical and sound. However it's pretty clear that FTR is not going to help you out on this one - whether they should or not - so it's probably time to just move on switch to PokerStars.

The only reason I can see that FTR wouldn't grant this request is that it's 1.) not in their power to do so, 2.) they don't believe you're going to stop playing on FTP if they don't or 3.) They're concerned about setting a precedent of paying rakeback to players who kick up enough fuss.

of the three, the latter seems the most likely, which is why it seems like it would make the most sense for this thread to stop existing...

It is in their power, and believe it or not I am playing exclusively on stars and very happy with it. I'm not even sure I'll be needing unethical ways to pursue playing on FT

#3 I can understand, and I suppose you dont really want this thread yourself. However, here it is. All its going to take is a PM from or with the name of someone I can talk to, a post here that saying screw FTR I'm playing on stars end of story. I tend to be pretty vicious with +EV poker related information and I dont like to share (i.e. on 2+2) unless with a friend irl. Im not interested in spreading this unless the FTR owner comes to my house and lands a big one on the kitchen I guesss...

That said, assuming I'm disowning that account (will happen dont worry, already cashed out and sold FTPs), we still have a prisoner's dilemma - and let me ask you a question. Don't you think a good part of players capable of kicking up dust for rakeback are also the kind that can plan and move to a more favorable poker provider? An astute player willing to fight also goes where the fish go, and I've found the corners of PS where fish lurk in great numbers.

Now that we had that question, it may be fair to assume that most (lets say 70%, but I think 80-90 is justified) of players able to kick up enough dust, are also competent enough to follow through on Plan B and leave PTR with nothing. Likely such players will be their fair share of rake. Many could also skip the PTR step (like I almost did) and proceed directly with Plan B out of no hope. Ok so is it so bad to give them rakeback now? Seemingly, PTR is losing a big piece of the pie this way anyways. If you studied economics, you'll know that catering to both the regular player who will (for the sake of demand model) pay X and players from a different category who will pay Y, where Y<X, is more profitable than only catering to category Y (the players who likely are not very informed anyways, much less willing to investigate), as long as category Y keeps paying Y and not the lesser amount. Capturing both markets is called market segmentation and is very profitable (see Vista, released in different levels, with mostly little differences - or none if you can pirate it). The model is a bit shaky for this situation here since it depends solely on knowledge not moving to group Y (which it would not naturally do), however it still works, and makes for a significant amount of revenue. In fact, it may even be more profitable to implement rakeback across the board as an incentive to play, use this site, attract more intelligent signups etc but thats way off-topic.

So...prisoner's dilemma. What will it be then? Fruitful 'discussion', or conservative, poor money management?

[Kijjo]

I'd just like to say I don't think you're credible ZeroHero, your "join date" is like a few days ago (yes I understand you never had to join to use the code), you start off with this post...

I have the same situation and request. 10NL on FTP is a joke without rakeback, and I am only a poor college student....

and then suddenly you're here

if FTR doesnt care the amount a 10NL-25NL and $10-$26 sng grinder is bringing in...thats just lol, seriously now the content on this site...
....I pay in the neighborhood of a couple K per month for rake....

You keep acting like you're getting robbed. FTR is not ripping you off. Was it a bad idea for you to sign up without rakeback? Sure. Look through the forums and you'll see people mention rakeback everywhere. If you had spent any time in our forums, you would have heard people discussing the different site's rakes, different rakeback options, etc. But we can tell how much time you've spent on this site.
FTR simply advertised Full Tilt to you and now they're getting credit for bringing a new player to FT's site. If you were to offer FTR a sizeable chunk of $, sure they might consider it, but is that really going to happen since you're "a poor college student"?
I don't think you're helping anything by writing this out in the public, you're probably giving them even more reason to stonewall. If you think you're going to damage FTR in some way, I think most of our members could care less.

[BooG690]

It is in their power, and believe it or not I am playing exclusively on stars and very happy with it.

Then why are you being such a little bitch about this whole thing? Be happy on Stars and never play on Full Tilt Poker again.

/thread

[ZeroHero]

Then why are you being such a little bitch about this whole thing? Be happy on Stars and never play on Full Tilt Poker again.

/thread

I'm pretty surprised by the attitude of this forum's members. I'm guessing you also did not bother to read anything substantial. Playing on FTP vs Stars is not the issue, not my only alternative, and off-topic.

Apart from my first response to jyms, I've done my best to be sincere and respectful.

I am looking to discuss this with a mod/admin/owner and not get involved in immature back and forth like your response.

I've explained multiple times that I am not begging or coercing this site. What I want is for my offer to be considered by and discussed with someone with say in the matter. You'll find my explanation for why its a sensible suggestion in my responses above.

[ZeroHero]

I'd just like to say I don't think you're credible ZeroHero, your "join date" is like a few days ago (yes I understand you never had to join to use the code), you start off with this post...
and then suddenly you're here

Yes, my join date is recent. I dont understand how this effects my credibility concerning my request. Please elaborate. When is the correct date to join and suddenly be here?

You keep acting like you're getting robbed. FTR is not ripping you off.

I disagree. FTR provides me no services, I dont want any of them. The business model that they use is ironic because it screws players out of rakeback, yet this is contrary to the spirit of the site: to help beginners and grinders alike. Given that this is how the site is funded and run, what does that say about it? And if this is not ripping people off who dont know better (think beginners), then what is?

Was it a bad idea for you to sign up without rakeback? Sure. Look through the forums and you'll see people mention rakeback everywhere. If you had spent any time in our forums, you would have heard people discussing the different site's rakes, different rakeback options, etc. But we can tell how much time you've spent on this site.

You are keen to argue why I deserved to be stuck without rakeback through this account, as if I don't understand that further research could have alleviated this problem. Your principle oversight however, is consideration of my window of opportunity.

Let me explain. When a brand new beginner decides to play poker online after having participated in some home games. An acceptable course of action could be to find the most reputable site, deposit, play, and then evaluate (perhaps by joining a forum like this one i.e. 2+2, reviewing play, asking for help etc.). If this player is so new, how can he know that research before reserving a username is necessary. Reserving a username on a site (a step which comes long before ever making a deposit, mind you) is a non-committal step (or so one would assume), and you cannot chide me for only researching after using the code and before making my deposit, you are simply asking for too much imo, but here, really we are just exchanging opinions on ethics which is why this is off-topic.

Furthermore arguing about this is again, off-topic. I'm not here to argue on the ethics of how this site is run, I'm here to negotiate a solution to my problem.

--
The first response worth responding to you, albeit still...

FTR simply advertised Full Tilt to you and now they're getting credit for bringing a new player to FT's site.

I've already expressed my take on this multiple times. Good for FTR, I always respect a lucrative business model, but I'm not donating further.

If you were to offer FTR a sizeable chunk of $, sure they might consider it, but is that really going to happen since you're "a poor college student"?

Something is better than nothing, and if we can reach a deal where I remain affiliated to FTR, that lifelong something is quite better than nothing. Simple business.

I don't think you're helping anything by writing this out in the public, you're probably giving them even more reason to stonewall.

I have no other means of communication apparently. I wrote to your webmaster and the only other email I could find on this site with no response. I have no desire to continue this conversation in public.

I dont see how stonewalling will solve anything.

If you think you're going to damage FTR in some way, I think most of our members could care less.

I don't know what you mean. The members of this site are of no interest to me. I am only discussing this with you to clarify my situation because nobody else has stepped up to discuss this seriously.

That said, I guess I could consider smearing this site's rep if all I get is these types of 'gtfo responses' from normal forum posters, and no response from the owners, why not, although this would probably not be worth my time.

[BooG690]

So you're agreeing to /thread?

[kiwiMark]

Let me reiterate my previous post: I understand and agree with a large part of what you're saying. However it's clear that the powers that be aren't going to do anything about it, and so I am trying to kindly suggest that you're wasting your time writing essays here.

[ZeroHero]

So you're agreeing to /thread?

No. The purpose of this thread was to find an a mod/admin/owner who will discuss. If the supermod can come forward to so privately, we can all get out of each others hair.

You guys need to chill, and consider if taking out your hostility on me is getting you anywhere. At the very least it reflects on the forum.

[ZeroHero]

Let me reiterate my previous post: I understand and agree with a large part of what you're saying. However it's clear that the powers that be aren't going to do anything about it, and so I am trying to kindly suggest that you're wasting your time writing essays here.

While your opinion may matter, I do not see a "representative of powers that be" under your SN

Sorry for bothering to put in the time to explain the situation. I assumed it would be relevant to my request.

[kiwiMark]

Nope, not a representative of the forum, trying to be helpful because all the other posts in this thread have missed the point. However you'll also note the rather clear lack of a queue of forum representatives desperate to talk to you, which is why I was suggesting this isn't worth your time.

More and more it seems you just feel like having an argument, though, so that's cool.

[Keith]

noones missed the point . If you buy a car and six months later you find out you could have got discounted fuel for it if you had bought from another dealer you can't go back to the dealer you bought your car from and say I was naive , you're now screwing me over for the extra fuel cost over what you would have paid buying through a different dealer.

Buyer beware. You should have looked for the best deal possible , you didn't and signed a deal using FTRs code.Noone knows the terms of FTRs deal with Full tilt but it may not even be possible for them to unaffiliate you. For the record , I signed up directly to full tilt as my first poker room before I knew anything about rakeback bonuses etc so I don'y have rakeback either. Theres plenty of other sites to play at so I am.

FTR's deal that you accepted offered freerolls as part of it. If you haven't participated in the "bonus" that FTR offers you as one of its clients thats your fault.

[kiwiMark]

I maintain that's simply not the point. If his options were "play at FTP without rakeback" (continue paying more for fuel) or "play at FTP and convince flopturnriver to give him rakeback" (convince the dearlership to give him discounted fuel) exclusively, then I'd agree with you, it's a case of flopturnriver profiting because the 'buyer' was not 'wary'.

However, it's not. He has a third option, go to another pokersite where he has rakeback (if you will, get fuel vouchers from a separate dealership entirely, at almost no cost to him, just a slight inconvenience of changing his habits).

Clearly our man is not going to continue to pay more for fuel, which means he is now left with two options.

1. Convince FlopTurnRiver to pay him rakeback, and continue using FTP.
2. Change pokersites, and stop using FTP.

If he chooses the first option, FlopTurnRiver profits, as they continue getting a percentage of the rake he pays while using FTP.
If he chooses the second option, FlopTurnRiver gets nothing at all.

It's not a question of him crying foul, and asking for charity from FlopTurnRiver. He is offering to continue providing FlopTurnRiver with income, in exchange for rakeback. He is doing this because of the inconvenience of switching pokersites. There's no moral dilema here, no idea that FlopTurnRiver wronged him, simply that from where we are now, it is in both parties best interest to give him rakeback.

[BooG690]

Goddammit Kiwi. Don't feed the trolls.

[ZeroHero]

noones missed the point . If you buy a car and six months later you find out you could have got discounted fuel for it if you had bought from another dealer you can't go back to the dealer you bought your car from and say I was naive , you're now screwing me over for the extra fuel cost over what you would have paid buying through a different dealer.

Your analogy doesnt fit, when I can get a new car for free, and the dealer is directly dependent on me as my sole distributor of gas with that car. Never mind sunk costs of price of the car are non-existant here.

Buyer beware. You should have looked for the best deal possible , you didn't and signed a deal using FTRs code.Noone knows the terms of FTRs deal with Full tilt but it may not even be possible for them to unaffiliate you. For the record , I signed up directly to full tilt as my first poker room before I knew anything about rakeback bonuses etc so I don'y have rakeback either. Theres plenty of other sites to play at so I am.

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind once backgammon becomes a huge hit. Silly me I didnt realize I was buying so much with a promo for a deposit...before making the deposit.

FTR's deal that you accepted offered freerolls as part of it. If you haven't participated in the "bonus" that FTR offers you as one of its clients thats your fault.

I guess I missed out, oh well

[ZeroHero]

kiwiMark, you really hit the nail in the head. I don't get why everyone else is trying to derail the topic. Anyways thanks for your support, and sorry if I seemed like I wanted to argue...it's just with the kind of replies I was getting...

I dont expect a mod to come looking for me, I just would really appreciate a short PM or someone suggesting a name or email. I guess it was too much to ask for.


It's FTR's loss, what can I say.
Poor (or lack of) management is the number one leak, if you will, of organizations.
Im not going to kill myself pushing this old elephant uphill.


and, BooG690, I don't know you but you are distinctively the biggest troll in this thread.

[Keith]

Clearly our man is not going to continue to pay more for fuel, which means he is now left with two options.

1. Convince FlopTurnRiver to pay him rakeback, and continue using FTP.

Nobody knows the terms of FTRs deal with FTP. If they are just getting a referral income for new sign ups, they are not receiving any rakeback to pay on, The CPA affiliate agreement says that they can't make extra payments to sign ups. And noone knows whether FTR can unaffiliate him so that he can sign up for rakeback. From what I've read on forums once you've made a deposit with an affiliate code you are tied to that affiliate.

2. Change pokersites, and stop using FTP.

If he chooses the first option, FlopTurnRiver profits, as they continue getting a percentage of the rake he pays while using FTP.
If he chooses the second option, FlopTurnRiver gets nothing at all.

and if FTR just get a referral income they have no rakeback to pass on to him.

It's not a question of him crying foul, and asking for charity from FlopTurnRiver. He is offering to continue providing FlopTurnRiver with income, in exchange for rakeback. He is doing this because of the inconvenience of switching pokersites. There's no moral dilema here, no idea that FlopTurnRiver wronged him, simply that from where we are now, it is in both parties best interest to give him rakeback.

As i said , I don't have rakeback at FTP either , but I didn't make a deposit and signed up directly with FTP , so may be able to get an upgrade. I play on pokerstars because
1. pay less rake ...rake is paid on each full dollar at 5% instead of 1c per 15c (i think thats right) in the pot at FTP. so even with rakeback at FTP you pay more rake.
2. when i get high enough level so that clearuing bonuses is relatively easy and large enough bankroll ,I will bonus whore around different sites .


He has the third option of playing at other sites , thats what he should do or continue with the agreement he made with FTR at FTP.When you installed full Tilts software , you had to agree to terms and conditions when you installed it , and when you created an account. You knew that you were making a binding agreement at this stage otherwise you wouldn't have een able to continue with installing or creating an account.

Let me explain. When a brand new beginner decides to play poker online after having participated in some home games. An acceptable course of action could be to find the most reputable site, deposit, play, and then evaluate (perhaps by joining a forum like this one i.e. 2+2, reviewing play, asking for help etc.). If this player is so new, how can he know that research before reserving a username is necessary. Reserving a username on a site (a step which comes long before ever making a deposit, mind you) is a non-committal step (or so one would assume), and you cannot chide me for only researching after using the code and before making my deposit, you are simply asking for too much imo, but here, really we are just exchanging opinions on ethics which is why this is off-topic.

How about when he finds he respectable forum , he makes a post along the lines of ......"Hi, I'm thinking of playing online poker , which sites would you recommend to a noob at online poker and anything else I should know." . This would then have got responses suggesting rakeback, which sites are best for beginners in terms of clearing first deposit bonuses , tracking software, sites available to US players etc.

Now you obviously managed top find this site before registering Full tilt, instead of thinking I'm a beginner i'll look at the beginners circle in the forum , and then seing the "beginners digest learning starts" sticky there and seeing a whole list of important posts for the beginner like "the importance of rakeback by spoonitnow."

Even if you miss that step, the poker bonuses and room reviews tabs all have panes down the right hand side of the page.Third section down and third item in that section is rakeback. The information was there when you found the flopturnriver code. Click on that link and you will see that FTR doesn't appear to have a rakeback agreement with FTP but it does tell you about rakeback.

Having found out about rakeback and that FTR didn't offer rakeback on full tilt he could have googled full tilt rakeback and found sites that did offer it.



Alternatively he could look for some poker magazines which would also tell him about rakeback.

[kiwiMark]

Holy shit that's all so irrelevant.

Edit: Except for the bit about how FTR gets income. But Jyms said that releasing him would be "releasing a potential source of income" the implication being that FTP ships flopturnriver a percentage of rake paid by users that sign up through flopturnriver. If that's not the case, then obviously things are different.

[ZeroHero]

@ Keith

reading comprehension FTW

since you did not read the posts above, I won't reply in detail, but parts of what you said is irrelevant or contradictory to info provided in some posts. One comment from me, if FTR is on CPA, then there is no incentive not to release me for a small donation. /end of this problem


[ ] you read post # 4, paragraph 2
[ ] you read post # 11, paragraph 3-5
[ ] you read or skimmed 2+2 post on rakeback for non-affiliated players (link: ** Official thread for RakebackPros discussion and RB for existing FT accounts - Page 101 - Rakeback and Affiliates - Poker Affiliating and Rakeback Forum)
[X] you are eligible for rakeback Keith, you're welcome.
[X] not knowing this but telling me how much research I should've done before signing up
[X] more forgiving rake on PS
[X] bonus whoring is just a nicer form of rakeback, which theoretically is only a % of your winrate, focus on your game
[ ] people read T&Cs
[ ] you read T&Cs (generally doubtful, for you very improbable - see 2 checkboxes down)
[X] its possible to check the box "I read it" without reading T&Cs
[ ] Rakeback, Rake, Affiliation, Bonus Code implications and related topics are included in FTP's T&Cs, EULA, or Site Terms
[ ] telling me i shouldve posted on best site and noob tips before registering an SN is helpful or fitting
[X] not entirely sure if there even were these room review, less so rakeback tabs 2-3 years ago on this site, if they were thanks for the tip
[ ] using present day content/organization of a site makes for a solid point for content on an internet page years ago
[ ] I was dying to read poker magazines before playing


enjoy your newfound rakeback Keith, thanks for all the love (this forum makes me feel dizzy)

[Keith]

whats so irrelevant about paying more rake at FTP than stars or other sites simply because of the way that the pots are raked . At stars on a $1.99 you pay rake on $1 whereas at full tilt you pay rake on $1.95.Thats one hell of a difference in rake that you pay over thousands of hands at the micros.
Whats so irrelevent about asking for advice before signing up to a poker room. Whats so irrelevent about pointing out that a rakeback link is on the poker room reviews and bonus tabs when Zerohero says that he didn't know about it and FTR should have told him about it. FTR don't offer a rakeback account so its hardly a great business model to advertise saying you need rakeback but we don't offer it. You don't promote the fact that you can get a better deal elsewhere.

Whats so irrelevent about pointing out that he signed a deal and agreed to the terms and conditions. FTR invest a lot of money in the freerolls and it generates signups, referrals . Only a percentage of those signups are going to deposit and an even smaller percentage ore going to move up the stakes. What Zerohero & the OP are saying is that now they are some of the minority that are moving up levels they want to renegotiate the agreement to drastically cut the return on FTR's investment. Once they agree then all the "successful" referals that generate income will all want the same thing.

How is the fact that FTR don't even offer a rakeback account on full tilt irrelevent. Since the rakeback is handled by full tilt normally and FTR don't appear to have an agreement with FTP to do that , how do you expect this rakeback that you are advocating to hbe handled.

Also , zeroheros's honesty and credibility is called into question . Look his handle up on PTR and his total rake paid at cash games at full tilt is $65 and he's played 447 SNGs with 2$ average stake according to sharkscope and 336 MTTs according to OPR since 2006..Hardly correlates to the 2K rake per month that he is claiming .

[ZeroHero]

the checkboxes were easy so I hope you dont mind

whats so irrelevant about paying more rake at FTP than stars or other sites simply because of the way that the pots are raked . At stars on a $1.99 you pay rake on $1 whereas at full tilt you pay rake on $1.95.Thats one hell of a difference in rake that you pay over thousands of hands at the micros.

[ ] I specified what I found irrelevant
[X] pros and cons of other site alternatives are relevant to general discussion
[ ] pros and cons of other site alternatives are relevant to the core aim of topic, me and OP
[X] agreed with you PS rake > FTP rake (qualitatively) in last post

Whats so irrelevent about asking for advice before signing up to a poker room. Whats so irrelevent about pointing out that a rakeback link is on the poker room reviews and bonus tabs when Zerohero says that he didn't know about it and FTR should have told him about it. FTR don't offer a rakeback account so its hardly a great business model to advertise saying you need rakeback but we don't offer it. You don't promote the fact that you can get a better deal elsewhere.

[ ] these sort of tips do much to help the thread title
did you get that screenshot of the site 2.5 years ago or are we just speculating?
[X] true true makes sense to keep that info under wraps
[X] discussion on ethics of FTR possible in another thread

Whats so irrelevent about pointing out that he signed a deal and agreed to the terms and conditions. FTR invest a lot of money in the freerolls and it generates signups, referrals . Only a percentage of those signups are going to deposit and an even smaller percentage ore going to move up the stakes. What Zerohero & the OP are saying is that now they are some of the minority that are moving up levels they want to renegotiate the agreement to drastically cut the return on FTR's investment. Once they agree then all the "successful" referals that generate income will all want the same thing.

[ ] you found anything relevant to this topic in the T&Cs of FTP (see previous post)
[X] I want to help FTR help itself to get continued return rather than 0 return
[ ] above is a very complex and tricky to understand
[X] two checkboxes above has been addressed several times in this thread
[ ] all referrals will be aware (you're not even aware you are eligible for rakeback)
[X] we are a minority in numbers
[ ] we are a minority in revenue
[X] you yourself said most referrals dont deposit
[ ] a solution where FTR becomes a rakeback provider as well is bad for their business

How is the fact that FTR don't even offer a rakeback account on full tilt irrelevent. Since the rakeback is handled by full tilt normally and FTR don't appear to have an agreement with FTP to do that , how do you expect this rakeback that you are advocating to hbe handled.

[X] I expect to be released or to discuss the possibility of FTR adding rakeback to their product portfolio. Not a bad idea at all if they are nurturing long term players.

Also , zeroheros's honesty and credibility is called into question . Look his handle up on PTR and his total rake paid at cash games at full tilt is $65 and he's played 447 SNGs with 2$ average stake according to sharkscope and 336 MTTs according to OPR since 2006..Hardly correlates to the 2K rake per month that he is claiming .

?

did you get your rakeback yet? not even a passing thanks? ... instead this?


[ ] ZeroHero is my SN on FTP or PS
[ ] I like to spread my SN to strangers
[X] ZeroHero is registered pre-November 2006 (link: ZEROHERO Poker Results and Statistics - Official Poker Rankings)

[Keith]

Yeah , I know that I can probably get rakeback (depending on whether any tracking cookies had been placed on my computer before I signed up to full tilt originally), and it involves FTP agreeing with there own rakeback provider and then I have to make a deposit within 60 days. Dont worry , I HAVE DONE MY RESEARCH, even told a friend about how to go about it and thats how i know that you have to make the deposit.the point is that I AM focussing on my game , I'm now playing 25NL at stars AND once i have that beaten and suitable bankroll I will be looking to bonus whore around the other sites including FTP (If i can get rakeback) but at a stake where clearing the bonuses is easy and where the rake % makes it viable.

If you didn't read the terms and conditions before ticking the box that said that you had read them , tough luck.If you agree to any financial agreement without reading the terms and conditions you are asking for trouble. For example I was reading a littlewoods poker promotion the other day and you have wager to 50 * the instant deposit bonus on a first deposit before you can withdraw any winnings. That was tucked away in the terms and conditions. For all you knew you could have agreed to never withdraw any winings. Extreme example I know but if you don't read the terms how do you know otherwise.


[x] you read post # 4, paragraph 2

so a guy who wants out says , yeah full tilt say i can swap if you agree. And you automatically assume that hes telling the truth. Where's a screenshot of an email from full tilt saying that they will agree to swap you to rakeback if FTR agree?

[x] you read post # 11, paragraph 3-5

And you have no idea what agreement that FTR have with FTP so you can only speculate. You also don't know whether FTR are allowed to try and offer a rakeback account under the terms of their agreement with FTP.


for you to get rakeback you have to be released by FTR .....how is that going to help them get a continuing income from you . If you leave they get nothing , if you stop playing full tilt they get nothing whats the difference?
Are you saying that if you leave that you will honestly give them a cut of the rakeback that you generate.

So zerohero is not your SN , kind of ironic that they have the same stakes and game types that you originally claimed.. 2k of rake per month at the 35% referrer cut generates $8400 per year for FTR that you are asking them to give up. This would then leave you free to get rakeback for the rest of your life . That is the potential income you want them to give up so that you can get rakeback at FTR. They are gonna want a sizeable payment for you to buy yourself out of that agreement even if FTR wanted to.

[ZeroHero]

Yeah , I know that I can probably get rakeback (depending on whether any tracking cookies had been placed on my computer before I signed up to full tilt originally), and it involves FTP agreeing with there own rakeback provider and then I have to make a deposit within 60 days. Dont worry , I HAVE DONE MY RESEARCH, even told a friend about how to go about it and thats how i know that you have to make the deposit.the point is that I AM focussing on my game , I'm now playing 25NL at stars AND once i have that beaten and suitable bankroll I will be looking to bonus whore around the other sites including FTP (If i can get rakeback) but at a stake where clearing the bonuses is easy and where the rake % makes it viable.

Ok

p.s. focusing on your game was just a friendly tip from experience, relax

If you didn't read the terms and conditions before ticking the box that said that you had read them , tough luck.If you agree to any financial agreement without reading the terms and conditions you are asking for trouble. For example I was reading a littlewoods poker promotion the other day and you have wager to 50 * the instant deposit bonus on a first deposit before you can withdraw any winnings. That was tucked away in the terms and conditions. For all you knew you could have agreed to never withdraw any winings. Extreme example I know but if you don't read the terms how do you know otherwise.

Well, I did read them. But it doesn't mention anything about this rake, rakeback, affiliates, or bonus codes. You've lost me here

[x] you read post # 4, paragraph 2

so a guy who wants out says , yeah full tilt say i can swap if you agree. And you automatically assume that hes telling the truth. Where's a screenshot of an email from full tilt saying that they will agree to swap you to rakeback if FTR agree?

Don't see why he'd make it up if otherwise theres no point to this. I posted myself that I was given the same offer. A screenshot a day is enough for me, but you can look for yourself at the 2+2 thread I linked above, you'll find examples of this offer.

[x] you read post # 11, paragraph 3-5

And you have no idea what agreement that FTR have with FTP so you can only speculate. You also don't know whether FTR are allowed to try and offer a rakeback account under the terms of their agreement with FTP.

FTP makes it clear on their site what sort of affiliate relationships they're open to. Most businesses do.

Becoming a rakeback provider is open to anyone. This is not the only alternative to a compromise.

for you to get rakeback you have to be released by FTR .....how is that going to help them get a continuing income from you . If you leave they get nothing , if you stop playing full tilt they get nothing whats the difference?

a donation

Are you saying that if you leave that you will honestly give them a cut of the rakeback that you generate.

no

So zerohero is not your SN , kind of ironic that they have the same stakes and game types that you originally claimed..

Now youre just being a d**k. Are you supposed to be a respected member around here? I see you have a decent number of posts so I would assume so.

Pretty lame that youre still pushing this. This guys games do not seem to match any of the games I mentioned either. ?? I considered posting a screenshot of the date of my first deposit, but I figured it was not worth participating in your online di*k swinging competition for who can come off as the most immature 18 year old. Then I changed my mind; I decided you and the rest of the forum should see that you're just a jerk at heart, dig derailing topics (just because the poster is new and can be hated on), and making shaky accusations based on pure airy speculation and presenting them like its fact (I guess to up your post count?) and I should in summary gtfo because im full of it. You're full of it.
Yfrog - twt.jpg
you'll find the year underlined in red
the first two letters of my SN are visible as a special treat

2k of rake per month at the 35% referrer cut generates $8400 per year for FTR that you are asking them to give up. This would then leave you free to get rakeback for the rest of your life . That is the potential income you want them to give up so that you can get rakeback at FTR. They are gonna want a sizeable payment for you to buy yourself out of that agreement even if FTR wanted to.

This is the 2nd or 3rd and last time I am going to spell this out for you. I'm not asking them to give it up. They will give it up involuntary when I stop feeding them, or they will reach a compromise with me and keep some of it. What did you score on your SATs? Reading must have been challenging. Math as well considering this: (thats pretty much the whole SAT)

...I helped you out over the past two years or so, you're welcome. But I'm not a charity.

...336 MTTs according to OPR since 2006

[Keith]

So zerohero is not your SN , kind of ironic that they have the same stakes and game types that you originally claimed..
Now youre just being a d**k. Are you supposed to be a respected member around here? I see you have a decent number of posts so I would assume so.

Pretty lame that youre still pushing this. This guys games do not seem to match any of the games I mentioned either. ?? I considered posting a screenshot of the date of my first deposit, but I figured it was not worth participating in your online di*k swinging competition for who can come off as the most immature 18 year old. Then I changed my mind; I decided you and the rest of the forum should see that you're just a jerk at heart, dig derailing topics (just because the poster is new and can be hated on), and making shaky accusations based on pure airy speculation and presenting them like its fact (I guess to up your post count?) and I should in summary gtfo because im full of it. You're full of it.
Yfrog - twt.jpg
you'll find the year underlined in red
the first two letters of my SN are visible as a special treat

And to prove your maturity you have to resort to insults. This has nothing to do with bashing up a new poster or upping my post count. You entered into an agreement and now you want to get out of it. Take it as life education. All your decisions have consequences and you have to live with them. You should get advice before entering an agreement and look at all the deals available before deciding. You didn't and now you've found the pitfalls.

2k of rake per month at the 35% referrer cut generates $8400 per year for FTR that you are asking them to give up. This would then leave you free to get rakeback for the rest of your life . That is the potential income you want them to give up so that you can get rakeback at FTR. They are gonna want a sizeable payment for you to buy yourself out of that agreement even if FTR wanted to.
This is the 2nd or 3rd and last time I am going to spell this out for you. I'm not asking them to give it up. They will give it up involuntary when I stop feeding them, or they will reach a compromise with me and keep some of it. What did you score on your SATs? Reading must have been challenging. Math as well considering this: (thats pretty much the whole SAT)

true to form more insults. For your information I'm in the UK so SAT doesn't apply. I did A level maths physics and chemistry to get my university place and graduated with an honours degree. Now self employed businessman. Hence all the advice about having to read the terms and conditions of any deal that you are offered . In Business you can't turn round 6 months later and say ooops , didn't realise that clause would have this effect , can we renegotiate, You are lumbered with the agreement you signed up for.

With the rake that you say you are generating , You are going to have to offer a sizeable donation for FTR to give up the right to a cut of lifetime earnings. Although you say that you will simply stop playing at full tilt, if you are a US citizen there are a limited number of alternative rooms available to you which strengthens FTRs bargaining position and weakens yours.As your bankroll grows , spreading your roll across sites becomes more important so that you can get to the most profitable games. This is a factor that FTR will also be taking into consideration. The opportunity benefit to you at a later time may mean that you would be willing to pay a much larger " donation" to leave at a later date than you would be willing to pay at the current time as a "struggling student".

You keep saying that you have to keep spelling it out that you will voluntarily stop playing to stop giving FTR any income. You are hardly in a strong bargaining position. Anyone can change sites regularly, and you can get rakeback at other sites. FTR have you by the balls as far as playing on FTP is concerned. By releasing you they set a precedent for all there other signups to leave, and they lose the chance that you may pay more later on either by playing or to leave. Whereas , you are just threatening to not pay them anymore. But FTP may get shut down , US Govt may make online poker illegal in the US or you could just stop playing at FTP even if they did give you rakeback all would have the same effect of stopping any income from you.

[ZeroHero]

I find it amusing that I respond to every sentence you write and you pick a few, and your response is either 'too bad, tough luck', 'must be bs', something new derailing the topic, or something old I already clarified for you.

The only new thing I see from a glance is something about you being a businessman.

Heeeeeere we go

And to prove your maturity you have to resort to insults.

hmm

This has nothing to do with bashing up a new poster or upping my post count.

ahh

You entered into an agreement and now you are getting out of it.

fyp

Take it as life education.

Yes teacher.

All your decisions have consequences and you have to deal with them.

fyp...I am

You should get advice before entering an agreement and look at all the deals available before deciding. You didn't and now you've found the pitfalls.

mhmm

true to form more insults. For your information I'm in the UK so SAT doesn't apply. I did A level maths physics and chemistry to get my university place and graduated with an honours degree. Now self employed businessman.

noo need to prove your geek status, I was merely saying you suck at Math and Reading...not sure how you managed to scrape through a math degree.

Hence all the advice about having to read the terms and conditions of any deal that you are offered .

I read them, nothing there. Third time I told you.

In Business you can't turn round 6 months later and say ooops , didn't realise that clause would have this effect , can we renegotiate, You are lumbered with the agreement you signed up for.

In this business we can, because I'm dropping the clause and the contract and saying goodbye. hmm read much?

With the rake that you say you are generating , You are going to have to offer a sizeable donation for FTR to give up the right to a cut of lifetime earnings.

hmmm...you had a math degree? small donation is not greater than 0?

Although you say that you will simply stop playing at full tilt, if you are a US citizen there are a limited number of alternative rooms available to you which strengthens FTRs bargaining position and weakens yours.

Not US citizen. plenty of US friendly options and workarounds anyways. derail much?

As your bankroll grows , spreading your roll across sites becomes more important so that you can get to the most profitable games.

disagree. ever heard of moving up?

This is a factor that FTR will also be taking into consideration.

FTP is the only site to spread my roll to? how many dozens of sites am I spreading my roll to exactly? lol

The opportunity benefit to you at a later time may mean that you would be willing to pay a much larger " donation" to leave at a later date than you would be willing to pay at the current time as a "struggling student".

mmm, well your grammar is weak so it's hard to understand this sentence...
I'll just say that PS is more than enough to keep me happy right now with over twice the player pool and lots of fish, and there are options if I ever get an FTP craving...like telepathically communicating actions to a friend on FTP.

You keep saying that you have to keep spelling it out that you will voluntarily stop playing to stop giving FTR any income.

I do. But whyyy

You are hardly in a strong bargaining position. Anyone can change sites regularly, and you can get rakeback at other sites.

your sentences contradict, but I agree with the second one...its kinda my point

FTR have you by the balls as far as playing on FTP is concerned.

I dont care, and see 3 quotes above, problem solved. Not like I'll die if I never play there again.

By releasing you they set a precedent for all there other signups to leave,

why? are they going to publish it in the NYTimes? If its a profitable compromise, why not?

and they lose the chance that you may pay more later on either by playing or to leave.

lol dont worry I'm done with FTP. hard to believe youre a businessman either (nevermind math and english)...dont you understand risk and weighing pros and cons? I'm not playing there without rakeback. Compensation for cooperation is sure. Future revenue coming into that account after stonewalling me is a 1% chance at best.

Whereas , you are just threatening to not pay them anymore.

you have an incomplete sentence...so I dont understand your point, but yes I am threatening to stop paying, as has been said a couple dozen times in this thread, good for you, you understood something.

But FTP may get shut down , US Govt may make online poker illegal in the US or you could just stop playing at FTP even if they did give you rakeback all would have the same effect of stopping any income from you.

lol derail much? umm...well this is interesting and the most retarded thing (maybe) youve said so far so here goes.

FTR will have bigger problems if this happens lol...see ad top left.

umm...yea the what else lol....the UIGEA makes deposits originating from US banks illegal not ummm playing online...common misconception fish and non poker community have. They could prohibit playing...but that would take quite a while, probably after poker is dead by natural causes.

hmm...you do realize...this ongoing case against fulltilt's owners will take months probably years?

and it has nothing to do with fulltilt itself being able to operate

if you mean US may hack down online poker outside all these other events, well lol introducing new legislation is not quite so easy, settle down. The UIGEA was snuck in a while ago look at how far its gotten, it'll only be enforced this June, 2010!

aaaaaaand most irrelevant comment award goes to you for saying "well, FTP could die (small chance) so fuck it FTR shouldn't care anyways" wtf lol does this even matter if the chance is good?

[ZeroHero]

its 4/20 dude stop being such a **** and light one up, youre making yourself look like a donkey anyways

[jyms]

So tired of opening this thread

locked

If the admins decide to respond they will unlock this and answer you Zero