vs. tough opponents.

[acg123]

UTG is tough winning reg,fairly aggressive, with a opening range of:
44+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T9s,98s,87s,76s,AJo+,KQo

we are in MP with tight-passive fish behind who we dont have to worry about being squeezed by, whats our flatting range? he opens 4xBB. cbets 85%.

i think AA-QQ,AKs,AKo are being 3bet pre so those are out.
with 100 bb stacks small pairs 88-22 are out. (too many overs will flop over the long run for us to make profit vs. his 2barrels.)
so that leaves JJ-99, KQs-76s.?? im confused as to how our coldcalling range should be adjusted to his opening range.

stove stats:
UTG=44+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T9s,98s,87s,76s,AJo+,K Qo=52.836%
Us(MP)=JJ-99,KQs,QJs,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,76s =47.164%

which means we need to have pot odds to call of 2.12 to 1 correct?
4xbb+1bb+.5bb = 5.5 to 4 immediate odds preflop.
so we cant profitably call that range.
Ill add QQ,AKo.
UTG=44+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T9s,98s,87s,76s,AJo+,K Qo=49.317%
Us(MP)=QQ-99,KQs,QJs,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,76s,AKo =50.683%

now because we are a slight favorite does this make it profitable to call?
5.5 to 4 pot odds says we need 72% equity to make this call.

am i doing my math right? are my ranges correct or do they need adjustment in either direction? (not villians, heros range)

[Fielmann]

Immediate pre-flop pot odds are a fairly irrelevant thing. But just to get your math right, here's how it would be done:

Your equity: 47.164%

Pot odds needed: (100% - 47.164%) / 47.164% = 1.12


Pot odds given: 5.5:4

Equity needed: 4 / (5.5 + 4) = 42.1%

[OngBonga]

UTG is tough winning reg,fairly aggressive, with a opening range of:
44+,ATs+,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T9s,98s,87s,76s,AJo+,KQo

This is a very wide utg opening range. Are we FR or short handed? If we're FR, you need to narrow this range a lot imo, if our read the utg is a winning reg is to be believed.

[acg123]

Immediate pre-flop pot odds are a fairly irrelevant thing. But just to get your math right, here's how it would be done:

Your equity: 47.164%

Pot odds needed: (100% - 47.164%) / 47.164% = 1.12


Pot odds given: 5.5:4

Equity needed: 4 / (5.5 + 4) = 42.1%

Thank you for the correction, but why does the formula work in that way? Or how do you know what number to put where? I'm wondering because I have a few more calcualtions to do regarding similar situations but I don't know the reasoning behind getting the answer. I appreciate you showing me how to do it, but now if I could get a small explanation or a link to a article that will tell me.

[acg123]

This is a very wide utg opening range. Are we FR or short handed? If we're FR, you need to narrow this range a lot imo, if our read the utg is a winning reg is to be believed.

No, its 6max. And its actually. My urgent range which I'm winning from that position. Just curious as to how villians see my range and how they wwould exploit me.

[OngBonga]

Ok 6max I dunno, I probably don't open as wide as I could utg 6max so ignore my comments and see what others say.

[MadMojoMonkey]

I haven't played 6-max in a few months, but I think an opening range over 25% from UTG is borderline maniac. In position against this guy, I'd be 3-betting about half his range, call it 20%.
{22+,A8s+,K9s+,QTs+,J9s+,T9s,98s,87s,A9o+,KTo+,QJo ,JTo}

I totally disagree about the assessment of folding 22 - 88 pre-flop. Hero is almost definitely ahead of Villain pre-flop with these holdings. If Villain is 2 barreling more than 1 in 3 hands, Villain is exploiting Hero. Hero calling 2-barrels when Villain always 2-barrels is just obv. with any made hand or bluff catcher.

I don't know if there's value in trying to outrange this Villain. Villain is too wide, not too tight. Hero's range is almost definitely ahead, as it is more selective than Villain's.

I know how to play my range. Including hands I don't usually play from positions I'm not used to is just bad mojo. There's a reason I don't play those hands in those positions (lord knows I used to play all hands from all positions.)

Bottom line, stay in your comfort zone, while pushing this Villain back more.

"If someone push back into me when they have air... maybe... 1 in 3 times... That would frustrate me very much. I would not like to play against that player." -Patrik Antonius

[Fielmann]

why does the formula work in that way? Or how do you know what number to put where?

The juggling between percentages and odds takes some getting used to. I've found that it helps to first think about some very simple and intuitive fractions like one half or one third, try to really understand how the logic behind them works, and after that extrapolate to weirder fractions.

Let's say the pot is currently 1 and opponent bets pot. It costs us 1 to call and there is now 2 in the pot, so the pot odds are 1:2. So every time we lose, we lose 1, and every time we win, we win 2. Therefore, we break even, if we win half as often as we lose. How big does the chance to win have to be for it to be half the size of the chance lose?

Answer: The chance to win must be 33.33%, for then the chance to lose would be twice as much or 66.67%.

We state the rule that the ratio between the chance to win and the chance to lose must equal the ratio between bet size and pot size, as expressed with the pot odds.

First case: We know that the chance to win is 47.164%. To find the ratio between the chance to lose and that, we first find the chance to lose (100% - 47.164%) and the divide it with the chance to win (47.164%).

Second case: The ratio between the chance to win (x) and the chance to lose (1-x) must be the same as the ratio between the bet (4) and the pot (5.5).

x / (1-x) = 4/5.5
x = 4/5.5 - (4/5.5)x
x + (4/5.5)x = 4/5.5
(1 + 4/5.5)x = 4/5.5
x = 4 / (5.5(1 + 4/5.5))
x = 4 / (5.5 + 4) (which is the equation I gave)

[acg123]

I haven't played 6-max in a few months, but I think an opening range over 25% from UTG is borderline maniac. In position against this guy, I'd be 3-betting about half his range, call it 20%.
{22+,A8s+,K9s+,QTs+,J9s+,T9s,98s,87s,A9o+,KTo+,QJo ,JTo}

villans range is well under 25% heres a stove pic.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

I totally disagree about the assessment of folding 22 - 88 pre-flop. Hero is almost definitely ahead of Villain pre-flop with these holdings. If Villain is 2 barreling more than 1 in 3 hands, Villain is exploiting Hero. Hero calling 2-barrels when Villain always 2-barrels is just obv. with any made hand or bluff catcher.

I don't know if there's value in trying to outrange this Villain. Villain is too wide, not too tight. Hero's range is almost definitely ahead, as it is more selective than Villain's.

knowing now that villians range is much tighter than you originaly percieved does that change what you said here? i think what you said is good advice IF villian was opening 25%.

[acg123]

The juggling between percentages and odds takes some getting used to. I've found that it helps to first think about some very simple and intuitive fractions like one half or one third, try to really understand how the logic behind them works, and after that extrapolate to weirder fractions.

Let's say the pot is currently 1 and opponent bets pot. It costs us 1 to call and there is now 2 in the pot, so the pot odds are 1:2. So every time we lose, we lose 1, and every time we win, we win 2. Therefore, we break even, if we win half as often as we lose. How big does the chance to win have to be for it to be half the size of the chance lose?

Answer: The chance to win must be 33.33%, for then the chance to lose would be twice as much or 66.67%.

We state the rule that the ratio between the chance to win and the chance to lose must equal the ratio between bet size and pot size, as expressed with the pot odds.

First case: We know that the chance to win is 47.164%. To find the ratio between the chance to lose and that, we first find the chance to lose (100% - 47.164%) and the divide it with the chance to win (47.164%).

Second case: The ratio between the chance to win (x) and the chance to lose (1-x) must be the same as the ratio between the bet (4) and the pot (5.5).

x / (1-x) = 4/5.5
x = 4/5.5 - (4/5.5)x
x + (4/5.5)x = 4/5.5
(1 + 4/5.5)x = 4/5.5
x = 4 / (5.5(1 + 4/5.5))
x = 4 / (5.5 + 4) (which is the equation I gave)

good shit! thank you

[MadMojoMonkey]

knowing now that villians range is much tighter than you originaly percieved does that change what you said here? i think what you said is good advice IF villian was opening 25%.

You're right, I mis-read the range, sorry.

The following are my own ranges {in braces}. They are not based on Pokerstove's ranges. Your range for a given percentile may differ from mine.

Hero (thinks he) outplays Villain post-flop:
Range to 3-bet: top 10% { 77+,ATs+,KJs+,QJs,JTs,T9s,AJo+,KQo }
Range to flat: next 10% { 66-22,A9s-A8s,KTs-K9s,QTs,J9s,98s,87s,ATo-A9o,KJo-KTo,QJo,JTo }

Hero (thinks he) is outplayed by Villain post-flop:
Range to 3-bet: top 5% { TT+,AQs+,KQs,AQo+ }
Range to flat: next 10% { 99-55,AJs-A9s,KJs-KTs,QJs,JTs,T9s,AJo-ATo,KJo+,QJo,JTo }

If this villain is smart, you'll need to start adjusting your range after a dozen hands or so. Fold one of these within your range sometimes and call with something in a deeper range later. This helps vary your range, but doesn't leave you out of your zone.

[acg123]

You're right, I mis-read the range, sorry.

The following are my own ranges {in braces}. They are not based on Pokerstove's ranges. Your range for a given percentile may differ from mine.

Hero (thinks he) outplays Villain post-flop:
Range to 3-bet: top 10% { 77+,ATs+,KJs+,QJs,JTs,T9s,AJo+,KQo }
Range to flat: next 10% { 66-22,A9s-A8s,KTs-K9s,QTs,J9s,98s,87s,ATo-A9o,KJo-KTo,QJo,JTo }

Hero (thinks he) is outplayed by Villain post-flop:
Range to 3-bet: top 5% { TT+,AQs+,KQs,AQo+ }
Range to flat: next 10% { 99-55,AJs-A9s,KJs-KTs,QJs,JTs,T9s,AJo-ATo,KJo+,QJo,JTo }

If this villain is smart, you'll need to start adjusting your range after a dozen hands or so. Fold one of these within your range sometimes and call with something in a deeper range later. This helps vary your range, but doesn't leave you out of your zone.

no problem, lol. ok, thanks alot for your input, since this is actually my range when i play, now i can see how a smart competent player would adjust to my opening range. i posted cbet stats a few weeks ago and got some good constructive reviews (you included). this is my second part, i found that i was leaking alot of my money postflop and my preflop was good, so i went a little deeper and found that actually the core of my losing 20BIs over 5k sample was ALOT of mis-interpreting ranges. this thread alone will shed some serious light on my game. hopefully ill be playing again by next week, but as for now more studying and plugging leaks! thanks again mojo.