5NL - AA Line check

[Savy]

Villain is 27/24 after 22 hands

Poker Stars, $0.02/$0.05 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $5 (100 bb)
BB: $8.83 (176.6 bb)
UTG: $9.17 (183.4 bb)
MP: $3.15 (63 bb)
Hero (CO): $5.07 (101.4 bb)
BTN: $6.78 (135.6 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A A
UTG folds, MP raises to $0.10, Hero raises to $0.35, 3 folds, MP calls $0.25

Flop: ($0.77) 3 2 Q (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $0.45, MP calls $0.45

Turn: ($1.67) 5 (2 players)
MP checks, Hero checks

River: ($1.67) 2 (2 players)
MP bets $2.35, Hero calls $2.35

Thoughts on checking turn? I suppose I could half pot the turn, but I feel this keeps in a lot of villains hands which he might think he can bet for value such as JJ, TT, KQ, which might fold if I bet the turn and it always gives him the chance to bluff shove his missed draws and other random crap.

Or is it silly to just not bet?

[Cobra_1878]

Betting flop bigger, ~0.70c, to shove non spade turns.

[griffey24]

Checking turn is pretty bad imo. Especially on this particular card where some ppl might convince themselves you are continuing with Ax.

I'd probably just go like 0.27 / 0.65 / shove river.

You have aces! If you want to play around with pot control and being tricky, wait till you 3b some Q9s hand and hit top pair.

[Savy]

70 is tooooooooooo big and we fold out lots of stuff we get value from if we bet smaller.

Checking turn is pretty bad imo. Especially on this particular card where some ppl might convince themselves you are continuing with Ax.

I'd probably just go like 0.27 / 0.65 / shove river.

I don't understand why that's bad, that's basically what I want? Is 27c not too small to be betting on the flop? I spoke about this with someone and they suggested betting smaller on the turn (no specifics) and I'm just not really all that familiar with betting so small.

[Cobra_1878]

70 is tooooooooooo big and we fold out lots of stuff we get value from if we bet smaller.

No it doesn't. It's 5NL, try experimenting. You would be surprised how many people call PSB's thinking it's a bluff/scared bet. Also, if he has a hand like AQ/a FD he is calling 0.70 just the same as he calls 0.45.

[Savy]

No it doesn't. It's 5NL, try experimenting. You would be surprised how many people call PSB's thinking it's a bluff/scared bet. Also, if he has a hand like AQ/a FD he is calling 0.70 just the same as he calls 0.45.

Still tooooo big, was tempted to do something like this and I don't think it's bad or anything I just think there's better ways of doing it.

You have aces! If you want to play around with pot control and being tricky, wait till you 3b some Q9s hand and hit top pair.

I wasn't trying to be tricky or do anything special really. I felt at the time that this was the best way to play it but I was aware that this was due to the awkward stack sizes I left on the turn.

[griffey24]

Yah ppl don't focus enough on bet sizing.

I usually choose my bet sizing in 3b pots for three streets by betting:
Flop: 1/10th of remaining effective stacks (this will often result in a somewhat smallish bet)
Turn: 1/4 of remaining effective stacks
River: Shove what is left, which will usually be like 2/3rd to 3/4 of pot or so.

So in this spot:
Flop - pot is 0.77. Effective stack remaining is $2.80. Bet 0.28.
Turn - pot is 1.33. Effective stacks remaining is $2.52. Bet 0.63.
River - pot is 2.59. Shove remaining effective stack of 1.89.

[Savy]

Care to explain the logic behind that as it doesn't really make any sense to me.

[griffey24]

Set up sizing to always leave a reasonable river bet behind (2/3-3/4 pot is reasonable), so that your bluffs will have fold equity and so your sizing with value hands is consistent with bluffing.

Also in a 3b pot we're generally very polarized going for 3 streets (our bluffs have to work much less often with smaller sizing), and I'm not too concerned about giving drawing hands odds to call (cause many stronger draws will raise in 3b pots anyhow, especially if we size it small).

[MadMojoMonkey]

I usually choose my bet sizing in 3b pots for three streets by betting:
Flop: 1/10th of remaining effective stacks (this will often result in a somewhat smallish bet)
Turn: 1/4 of remaining effective stacks
River: Shove what is left, which will usually be like 2/3rd to 3/4 of pot or so.

Intriguing.

Can you talk for a paragraph or two on the merits and perils of this betting style?

[jackvance]

100bb eff stacks btn villain vs sb hero. Open 3 you reraise to 9. BB folds, button calls, pot is 20 with 91 behind. You bet 10 he calls. Pot is 40 with 81 behind. You bet 21, he calls. Pot 82 you shove the remaining 60 in.

How would you varify this if stack sizes got smaller (70bb 85bb), and if stack sizes got bigger (150bb, 200bb)?

[Carroters]

Just bet turn sure he might fold TT JJ stuff sometimes but often he'll call again and I think it's optimistic to think he'll value bet rivers with these hands. Not getting 3 streets from stuff like AQ is pretty disastrous and ther are also some fd combos calling turns but not rivers.

[Savy]

Set up sizing to always leave a reasonable river bet behind (2/3-3/4 pot is reasonable), so that your bluffs will have fold equity and so your sizing with value hands is consistent with bluffing.

Also in a 3b pot we're generally very polarized going for 3 streets (our bluffs have to work much less often with smaller sizing), and I'm not too concerned about giving drawing hands odds to call (cause many stronger draws will raise in 3b pots anyhow, especially if we size it small).

This is just silly and seems like you've come up with a lazy solution to a problem you had one day of trying to optimise bet sizing for bluffs and value bets in 3bet pots.

[jackvance]

This actually works ok as a guideline for betsizing from which you can then vary based on board texture, game tendencies and player-specific stuff.

[griffey24]

This is just silly and seems like you've come up with a lazy solution to a problem you had one day of trying to optimise bet sizing for bluffs and value bets in 3bet pots.

Obviously if I have 999 and the flop is QJ9 two tone, I'm not going to bet 1/3rd of the pot. Or other similarly draw heavy boards. The board will play a critical role in my flop sizing. But on a drawy flop I think a ton of villains range will call flop and a turn shove, so I'll likely go for two streets.

Also if villain is a huge whale, I'll size earlier streets bigger cause I know he'll call anything with any draw but won't call many rivers unless he hits.

But on a non threatening board vs a reg where my betting is probably very polarized, A72, K95 or this spot Q23, and my goal is to go three streets then that method just helps me size appropriately.

Please propose to me a better plan for bet sizing on 3 streets? Because in the hand in question you've left yourself mostly either overbet shoving turn, or betting a reasonable size on the turn (~halfpot) but leaving yourself much less than half pot on river.

[BorisTheSpider]

Thoughts on checking turn?

Checking this turn is pretty bad. Bet bet bet, what are you waiting for, better than aces?

[Savy]

Please propose to me a better plan for bet sizing on 3 streets? Because in the hand in question you've left yourself mostly either overbet shoving turn, or betting a reasonable size on the turn (~halfpot) but leaving yourself much less than half pot on river.

I should just raise bigger/smaller pre. In this case I'd probably prefer bigger.

[griffey24]

I should just raise bigger/smaller pre. In this case I'd probably prefer bigger.

You wanna go bigger than 3.5x IP (which is already reasonably big IP) vs a stack that is already short?

[Savy]

You wanna go bigger than 3.5x IP (which is already reasonably big IP) vs a stack that is already short?

Ye, I don't see why it matters. My bet sizing isn't going to have any major effect on what raises/calls/folds unless I make it HUGE.

45/70/shove something along them lines.

I could just as easily go 0.25/0.35/0.80/2 which I prefer most of the time.

[Cobra_1878]

Ye, I don't see why it matters. My bet sizing isn't going to have any major effect on what raises/calls/folds unless I make it HUGE.

45/70/shove something along them lines.

I could just as easily go 0.25/0.35/0.80/2 which I prefer most of the time.

You're less likely to get a call from a big pre-flop raise than a big flop bet.

[daven]

bigger pre obviously, it's a 3b not an iso. Don't need to go huge though cos stack size.
flop and you can go bigger cos 24 hands just go for exploitation not balance vs someone you may never see again
bet turn

[rpm]

i'm looking to get stacks in here. the flop SPR is >3 so we can't get the stacks in before the river without overbetting. in light of this knowledge i think we can plan to do one of two things: either plan to get 3 "standard"ish sized streets, which would mean betting this flop smaller and aiming for a river SPR of 0.5-0.9 or whatever, or just betting larger on flop and bombing the turn leaving little money for the river - effectively putting villain to the decision on the turn.

i'd probably do the first one and aim for 3 streets.

edit: or we can obv overbet and do it all i 2 streets if we feel that won't cut our value too much, but either way i think checking the turn is a mistake

[rpm]

i'll leave it there for people to laugh at, but do ignore the above post. stoned people can't do maths

[MadMojoMonkey]

stoned people can't do maths

So you see officer, the square of the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the squares of the sides, therefore this is tobacco.

[xxraf73xx]

Bad action on turn, check is not good with two players...always bet ! on the river bet 2.35 not good too, he may only call with good hand like A4 or A2