4bet-fold, or just give it up?

[BorisTheSpider]

CO is 22/17 with 5.8% 3bet over 380 hands. Seen him squeeze some out of the blinds, but not so much elsewhere.

Can't see how he's not squeezing UTG+caller with a tighter range than 5.8%, and if I have 380 hands on him then that means:

a. He's a reg (I'm not so long at these games, so he must be around a lot for me to have 380 hands on him already)

b. He has 380 hands on me so knows I'm tight UTG.

So I'm never getting it in here, but does anyone like a 4-bet planning to fold this deep?

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

BTN: $13.32 (53.3 bb)
SB: $12.82 (51.3 bb)
BB: $32.41 (129.6 bb)
Hero (UTG): $49.95 (199.8 bb)
MP: $31.99 (128 bb)
CO: $42.63 (170.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A K
Hero raises to $0.75, MP calls $0.75, CO raises to $3

[MadMojoMonkey]

All day every day.

[BorisTheSpider]

All day every day.

OK, that was brief and to the point!

The main reason I'm not sure I like it here, is when he flats and I:

a. miss the flop
b. hit the flop and have to play a 4bet pot OOP with a lot of money behind

I dunno. As long as he folds or 5bets I can see a 4bet being good, but if he flats sometimes, I don't like it too much.

[MadMojoMonkey]

What is easier to play in a 4-bet pot OOP than AKo?

From Super System, p. 472:
"An A-K is a "better" hand than two Aces or two Kings for to very important reasons:

(1) You'll win more money when you make a hand with it; and

(2) You'll lose less money when you miss a hand with it.

And I can't think of two better reasons than those to prefer an A-K over the very big pairs.

The reason why you can make more money with an A-K than with two Aces (or Kings) is because it's a drawing-type hand as opposed to a made hand. I mean you don't have anything with an A-K unless you flop something. So you can get away from it real easy. You're not tied-on to it like you might be with a Pair of Aces (or Kings). And that's why you'll lose less money with it."

[eberetta1]

In your situation, I would do an all-in to show opponent I am not afraid to lose my chips when I have a good hand and it keeps their 4bets to 5.8% of hands instead of opponent getting brave and 4betting 10% of the time.

[abelardx]

Hm, not sure I like 4b/f'ing. That's basically betting for information. I usually call here. If I miss, I'm c/f'ing oop. If we hit, I would c/c the flop. Bet the river if the turn went check check. If he bets the turn again, I'd have to think about it, definitely calling on a dry board. Probably I'd call most turns with AK tptk, but if the board is super scary and he's happy to keep firing, only then would I fold because I know I'd fold the river anyway, and folding early is good.

[griffey24]

Ummm people see we're 170bb deep right?

I'm pretty meh on 4betting here. We are pretty dead when shoved on. I mean, if I'm 4b here I would almost want to use it as a 4b bluff to block his jamming hands AA/KK/AK. I don't hate calling OOP. Definitely a tough spot OOP with these stack sizes.

[d0zer]

What is easier to play in a 4-bet pot OOP than AKo?

From Super System, p. 472:
"An A-K is a "better" hand than two Aces or two Kings for to very important reasons:

(1) You'll win more money when you make a hand with it; and

(2) You'll lose less money when you miss a hand with it.

And I can't think of two better reasons than those to prefer an A-K over the very big pairs.

The reason why you can make more money with an A-K than with two Aces (or Kings) is because it's a drawing-type hand as opposed to a made hand. I mean you don't have anything with an A-K unless you flop something. So you can get away from it real easy. You're not tied-on to it like you might be with a Pair of Aces (or Kings). And that's why you'll lose less money with it."

What a bunch of nonsense, everybody wins more money with AA than they do with AK. Being worried about how much you're going to lose is just nitty old man thinking.

[MadMojoMonkey]

I don't understand what he means by "You'll win more when you make a hand." That can be something to do with higher stakes ranges and meta-game, maybe... IDK.


I don't think he's telling us he's worried about how much he'll lose. He's telling us that when he misses with AK, it's easier to fold than KK+, which have more showdown value. As such, it's easier to lose less money w/ AK, cause it's easier to fold when the pressure is high.

What I take away is that AK is a drawing hand and if I play it as such, rather than try to think top no pair is worth showdown, then there's really not much to playing this hand, even OOP.

[Carroters]

What a bunch of nonsense, everybody wins more money with AA than they do with AK. Being worried about how much you're going to lose is just nitty old man thinking.

Yeah this. Usually when we "miss" with AA we have the nuts. Doyle is dumb IMO.

[kickass]

Ima call. Being oop sucks but we're gonna dominate alot of his bluffs pre and fair well versus at least some of his value range. Play poker fella don't go crazzy. If mp comes along we should end up in a fairly straightforward spot.

[d0zer]

I don't understand what he means by "You'll win more when you make a hand." That can be something to do with higher stakes ranges and meta-game, maybe... IDK.


I don't think he's telling us he's worried about how much he'll lose. He's telling us that when he misses with AK, it's easier to fold than KK+, which have more showdown value. As such, it's easier to lose less money w/ AK, cause it's easier to fold when the pressure is high.

What I take away is that AK is a drawing hand and if I play it as such, rather than try to think top no pair is worth showdown, then there's really not much to playing this hand, even OOP.

That book was relevant in 1995? Go read sklansky and if you already have then read it again and you'll still get a lot more out of it than you would on a first read of super system.

[BorisTheSpider]

Ummm people see we're 170bb deep right?

I'm pretty meh on 4betting here. We are pretty dead when shoved on. I mean, if I'm 4b here I would almost want to use it as a 4b bluff to block his jamming hands AA/KK/AK. I don't hate calling OOP. Definitely a tough spot OOP with these stack sizes.

Yeah, if I'm 4betting, I'm definitely bluffing, but I don't like it because I basically only fold out worse or flipping.

I dunno, being this deep seems to make all the difference here - 100bb deep I'd 4bet get-it-in, because if he's 3betting a wide enough range that I thought I could call OOP, then he's also 3betting wide enough that I can profitably 4bet bluff, and if I do get shoved on there's so much already in the pot I'd feel OK about just calling it off, but this deep every possible line seems to suck.

I actually feel like I might have played it OK by just folding.

[daven]

hero folds, and I don't think it's particularly close oop and that deep. If you 4bet then villain isn't folding any of his range cos deep and ip. If you call then meh you don't even like K74rb flops if villain looks interested in getting stacks in. etc.

[rpm]

folding can't be awful if we think his range is pretty linear and value-oriented. if we think he is more likely to have a polarised range with some bluffs then i don't mind 4bing as an effective bluff or calling if hero feels his postflop game is good enough to play this hand OOP this deep.