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 Originally Posted by rpm
i'd 4b/call because i don't mind getting it in pre w/QQ 100bb deep at 6m in LPvsBlind situations against a regular who seems to employ at least some semblance of an exploitative 3b/4b/5b game. plus i wanna 4b bluff this guy a good amount in these spots which i cant really do if i'm only willing to felt KK+,AK. because as soon as he starts to adjust i'm going to getting owned by his 5b's.
the above is merely the rationale behind me wanting to 4b/call, and is by no means me claiming to be right about that position
What you've said is completely sound theoretically, but in practise, especially since I've been 4betting and shoving more balanced ranges myself, I've noticed the extent to which most regs at these stakes who are playing an exploitative 3b game, are very unbalanced and don't stack off light enough given their wide 3bet ranges.
I do see what you mean about a positional dynamic, and I'd 4bet it and get it in on the button, but the cutoff is very different in my experience - I think at these stakes, people perceive the positional dynamic when it's BTNvBlind, but are much more "standard" when it's a cutoff open.
edit: why are you sure he is 3betting de-polarised? do you have notes regarding this? i'd tend to assume if someone has an 11% 3b from the big blind that they are 3betting "light" to exploit weak LP opening ranges. which i found to be a polarised range more often than not - that could definitely have changed though
I'm not sure whether he's polarised or not, I was just observing how wide 9% is. It doesn't really matter whether he's polarised or not, if he's not and he folds the bottom 2/3 of his range to a 4bet and shoves the rest we might occasionally get it in with JJ/AQs, if he is polarised it's worse - we're getting it in with a stronger range, and just folding out hands we crush by 4betting.
Just to put in context how wide he'd have to be shoving for us to get it in profitably, if he's shoving {JJ+, AKs, AKo} we have 47% equity. If we 4bet to $1.80 and he shoves we have $8.20 to call in an $11.90 pot needing 41% equity, so against {QQ+, AKs, AKo} we're slightly -EV with a lot of unnecessary variance and against {JJ+, AKs, AKo} our 4bet has an EV of 5.6bb. I think there's much more than that to be had by flatting a 3bet. I also think, without a read, assuming he'll get it all in preflop with JJ is optimistic. Honestly, how often do you see it go all in preflop at these stakes and someone (not a maniac) turns over JJ?
Going back again to the fact that we're slightly worse than a flip vs {JJ+, AKs, AKo} that's once we've already narrowed his range by 4betting. Why not play with {88+, AJo+, KQo, JTs, QTs+, KTs+, ATs+} (65%) or alternatively {QQ+, AKs, AKo, A2s-A9s, K2s-K9s, ATo, KTo} (61%) instead?
Even if he's shoving {JJ+, AKs, AKo} that's 3% of hands, so if his 3bet in this spot is really 11.5% (small sample, but it seems reasonable with an overall 3bet of 9% over a decent sample) he's folding 74% of his 3bet range to a 4bet, whilst laying us $1.10 to $1.60 on a 4bet bluff, a spot where we need him to fold 59% to profit 4betting any two cards. That's what I mean about these micro regs being exploitable to 4bets. I'd rather 4bet bluff him liberally and flat his 3bets here with QQ to let him value town himself with his JJ/AJ/TT.
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