PL Cash hand to talk about

[Fnord]

Party Poker Pot-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) converter

MP1 ($64.50)
MP2 ($48.31)
MP3 ($22.25)
CO ($24.50)
Button ($16.62)
Fnord ($19)
BB ($17.50)
UTG ($22.05)
UTG+1 ($20.50)

Preflop: Fnord is SB with 6, K.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $0.50, MP1 calls $0.50, MP2 calls $0.50, MP3 folds, CO raises to $1, Button calls $1, Fnord calls $0.75, BB folds, UTG+1 calls $0.50, MP1 calls $0.50, MP2 calls $0.50.

Flop: ($6.50) 5, 7, T (6 players)
Fnord checks, UTG+1 bets $0.5, MP1 calls $0.50, MP2 calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50, Button calls $0.50, Fnord calls $0.50.

Turn: ($9.50) 4 (6 players)
Fnord bets $9.05, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds.

Final Pot: $18.55

Results in white below:
No showdown. Fnord wins $18.55.

[michael1123]

Pretty standard semibluff. Got to bet out any other draws, particularly if there's an ace high flush draw out there, and if you get called by a pair or something, you still have a 30% chance to win. But with how little strength shown by the other players, you don't expect a call either.

[Fnord]

Pretty standard semibluff. Got to bet out any other draws, particularly if there's an ace high flush draw out there, and if you get called by a pair or something, you still have a 30% chance to win. But with how little strength shown by the other players, you don't expect a call either.

I also have 3 King outs that might be good...

[michael1123]

Ok, so 36% if they have a pair under kings and above 6s. Thing is though, they've shown so little strength, even with that many players you could make that bet with 32o and you'd typically take down the pot.

Its pretty clear no one has a strong ten or better, so if you do get a call, it'll probably be a crazy fish on a draw that'd take away some of your outs, especially if he has the nut flush draw (and ace high if you both miss your draws).

Not that its a bad play, but you won't get the call from a pair often in that specific hand.

[Krapp]

I personally dont like the play on the turn. You have excellent potential for a good trap hand. My objective would be to to keep the bets low and hit one of the outs on the turn or river.

Flop:
(1) Whats with all these 1x bets? Something smells weak on this table. Anyways the CO to me looks like they gave-up with a 1x call. I am normally under the impression the raiser needs to bet/raise when the flop hits. Looks like CO missed whatever 2-high cards they had and through .50 in for giggles.
(2) Although probably a good play, I dont like the check. I am assuming the opps (especially the CO raiser) will bet something intelligently to try and fold any chasers. It looks like there are 6opps on the flop and I would think theres a good chance someone will bet/raise 4x+ or more.
(3) I would bet 2x or 3x instead of the check. At least it shows im the agressor and maybe the opps will call/fold, hopefully not raise, keeping my pot odds in good shape. Now Im still under the threat of a raise, but at least I am showing as the agressor and in this situation, everyone probably react the same way and call.

Turn:
(1) If a nice club drops, you can probably assume the best hand (other than Ax of clubs). Now 6 ppl are in, you with a close nut, my play would be check. I am hoping someone caught trips, straight, smaller flush, 2pair, etc. Just about any other catch from the 6-opps should give you winning play. If noone catches, I would do the same on the river. However, I would be a little worried with another club on the river (not Ace club obviously)
(2) Although there are a few cards that can beat you (Ax clubs, someone turning 2-pair or trips into a full), from the betting I would assume noone had trips and the real threat was the Ax clubs. In that case, I am willing to give a free river card and try the check trap again (assuming I hit the flush on the turn.) If I miss the flush, I could hit the straight or flush on the river. Making the same check trap good (especially with a flush)
the free river card and hopefully someone will improve.
(3) The big raise semi bluff looks good, and if someone calls, looks like you still have some good outs. Although, its limiting your winnings to the pot (maybe $4 of extra money) on the expected folds. I am guessing you might get calls from trips, straights, top pair flush draws (diamonds and clubs), maybe even 2-pair

In summary:
(1) With all those strong outs from the flop, I wouldnt think about semi-bluffing, in hopes I catch and really bring down a big pot. Especially since a club drop gives me a semi-nut hand
(2) The check on the flop with a strong raise from opp puts me in a bad pot odds decision. Check seems ok at a passive table. But I would either bet or in position, or re-raise so I can try and keep the pot odds in favor until I hit something good.
(3) Personally my big pots are from those opps that bet and think they have the best hand vs me bluffing/semi-bluffing them out of the pot. Especially good if these folks think they are the agressors..

This opinion is based on experience not on book theory so I dont advocate my opinion is the best play.

[AvatarKava]

Krapp,

I like Fnord's play better. With the betting as is, I'd sooner take down a pot of nearly 20x BB right there. Allowing one more card here leaves me susceptible to not only the nut flush draw, but also the potential of an overcard coming that will make it difficult for me to make a play at the pot.

What can you do if a J, Q or A (not a club).. heck, even a king, hits here? Any of those and you figure one of the six players left in the pot made a pair, and your K has a good shot of being outkicked.

This is a pretty big pot already - why get greedy when you're pretty sure you can take it down immediately?

[Krapp]

Krapp,

What can you do if a J, Q or A (not a club).. heck, even a king, hits here? Any of those and you figure one of the six players left in the pot made a pair, and your K has a good shot of being outkicked. The only card I'd love to see there is :Ac: ...

You must be talking about the turn. I am not sure if Fnord would semi-bluff if those cards dropped on the turn. I would still bet 2x-3x on the turn, showing agression. Any re-raise still worries me, but at least Im showing agression with a good outs on the river.

This is a pretty big pot already - why get greedy when you're pretty sure you can take it down immediately?

I misread the pot on the turn, but whenever I see a good potential of a big pot (even with this pot at 20xBB), I dont generally semi-bluff / bluff. I guess the agrument is to semi-bluff on the turn or wait for some potential play on the river.

[AvatarKava]

You must be talking about the turn. I am not sure if Fnord would semi-bluff if those cards dropped on the turn. I would still bet 2x-3x on the turn, showing agression. Any re-raise still worries me, but at least Im showing agression with a good outs on the river.

Nope. Talking about the river, based on the first line of your post before:

I personally dont like the play on the turn. You have excellent potential for a good trap hand. My objective would be to to keep the bets low and hit one of the outs on the turn or river.

Maybe you meant the flop? I'm confused, since it seems to contradict with the rest of your post ...

I thought his play on the turn was ideal. I wouldn't want to give a free river card under any circumstances.

[Krapp]

Nope. Talking about the river, based on the first line of your post before:

If a dud hits on the river, I would give it up. The semi-bluff gives a good return at the risk of opps calling since your out of position. The smooth bets of (2x-3x) causes 5x loss on missing your outs on turn/river but potential to win a big pot if you catch.

Maybe you meant the flop? I'm confused, since it seems to contradict with the rest of your post ...

I didnt like the check on the flop. It lacks agression and the semi-bluff on the turn reinforces the bet on the flop. A check(flop), big-raise(turn) isnt as strong to me. Although the semi-bluff on the turn looks ok, I dont prefer it. Although if your intention is a check-raise(flop). That would even reinforce the semi-bluff a bit better on the turn

Also, I dont know if a semi-bluff with 6opps behind me is ideal. With fewer players, ok. Also better, if your in position

I thought his play on the turn was ideal. I wouldn't want to give a free river card under any circumstances.

You can definately give free cards if they wont beat your hand. This is not as clear since someone could hve Ax clubs. Other than that any other catch from opp could give you good play. (assuming you catch flush on turn or river, or even the straight)

[Fnord]

Flop:
(1) Whats with all these 1x bets? Something smells weak on this table. Anyways the CO to me looks like they gave-up with a 1x call. I am normally under the impression the raiser needs to bet/raise when the flop hits. Looks like CO missed whatever 2-high cards they had and through .50 in for giggles.

Bad players.

(2) Although probably a good play, I dont like the check. I am assuming the opps (especially the CO raiser) will bet something intelligently to try and fold any chasers. It looks like there are 6opps on the flop and I would think theres a good chance someone will bet/raise 4x+ or more.
(3) I would bet 2x or 3x instead of the check. At least it shows im the agressor and maybe the opps will call/fold, hopefully not raise, keeping my pot odds in good shape. Now Im still under the threat of a raise, but at least I am showing as the agressor and in this situation, everyone probably react the same way and call.

I'd rather check/fold than dump another 2-3x get re-raised then fold. It's just a non-nut flush draw and I've learned to be a little more careful with them, particularly in a big multi-pot where lots of good and bad things can happen. The 1x BB bet called around is good for me because it builds a pot and gives me great implied pot odds.

Turn:
(1) If a nice club drops, you can probably assume the best hand (other than Ax of clubs). Now 6 ppl are in, you with a close nut, my play would be check. I am hoping someone caught trips, straight, smaller flush, 2pair, etc. Just about any other catch from the 6-opps should give you winning play. If noone catches, I would do the same on the river. However, I would be a little worried with another club on the river (not Ace club obviously)

Meh, betting and checking are close if a club hit. With so much aggression shown on the flop Probably depends on how high the club was.

(2) Although there are a few cards that can beat you (Ax clubs, someone turning 2-pair or trips into a full), from the betting I would assume noone had trips and the real threat was the Ax clubs. In that case, I am willing to give a free river card and try the check trap again (assuming I hit the flush on the turn.) If I miss the flush, I could hit the straight or flush on the river. Making the same check trap good (especially with a flush)
the free river card and hopefully someone will improve.
(3) The big raise semi bluff looks good, and if someone calls, looks like you still have some good outs. Although, its limiting your winnings to the pot (maybe $4 of extra money) on the expected folds. I am guessing you might get calls from trips, straights, top pair flush draws (diamonds and clubs), maybe even 2-pair

Given the more often than not the river misses me and the pot is fairly nice, I'm more than happy to take it right down. Hard to generate much more value than that.

[Krapp]

One other note:
(1) If this table is prone to have multi-way pots at 1x bets to the turn (noticing the bad players), I would be less inclined on semi-bluffing with a semi-nut draw potential hand (Although, I would be more inclined if I had a good draw (not semi-nut) and notice agression will cause ppl to wilt). I would figure that these situations (multi-pots) will pop-up frequently and I should be profitable with TPTK+. However semi-nut / nut hands wont be as frequently and I would be trying any way possible to mamimize its potential.

[Fnord]

Table was a little loose pre-flop, then very passive.

[DrNoChance]

Just my opinion, but I would have played it exactly the same way as Fnord here. You bet big to take the pot down on the turn, knowing that you probably can and will. You don't want to be called, but if you do then all is not lost with so many outs available.

[michael1123]

Krapp, I think you have a hole in your reasoning here. You said to bet the flop, UTG, on the draw. Ok, fine. But then you say if your flush hits you should check, and apparantly raise? Same on the river? Then why did you bet on the flop?

The best thing about leading on a draw is if you hit it, your hand is much more disguised. Not many players will be putting you on a flush, so at the very least lead out and bet as much as you did on the flop, if not more because of the bigger pot. The bet on the flop and then check when a draw hits is sometimes an obvious hit as well, with the nuts.

This part is kind of silly too:

I am guessing you might get calls from trips, straights, top pair flush draws (diamonds and clubs), maybe even 2-pair

Clearly no one has any of those hands in this case.

[Krapp]

Krapp, I think you have a hole in your reasoning here. You said to bet the flop, UTG, on the draw. Ok, fine. But then you say if your flush hits you should check, and apparantly raise? Same on the river? Then why did you bet on the flop?

A flop bet followed by a check on the turn, sometimes is seen as a weakness by your opps.
(1) In the scenario, preflop raise, bet flop, check turn... thats sometimes typical for those who have AK preflop, miss the flop but bets b/c being the agressor and wants ppl to fold. If the agressor didnt bet the flop, they are easy to ready (only bets when the flop hits)
(2) In the current scenario, we have a call on the preflop, a 2x bet on the flop, and a check on the turn. De-escalating bets are sometimes seen as weakness by opps and they will tend to bet to take advantage of the weak play or if they hit something on the turn. The reason I would check the turn (betting is also good) is to show weakness, b/c the previous bet I was the agressor. I especially would like to do this if I have a semi-nut or nut hand. Its the same concept if you have the deck crippled and you do everything you can to show weakness and hopefully ppl will bluff or catchup.
(3) If I miss on the turn (no straight or flush), I could keep betting. Representing the 10-pair etc, but really I am trying to keep good pot odds still. If I check, it shows weakness and opps might bet me out of the pot. Although, a little hard to do with all those outs in this hand. I do like the semi-bluff here too. Even a small escalating bet here (3x maybe), I have seen opps fold the turn

The best thing about leading on a draw is if you hit it, your hand is much more disguised. Not many players will be putting you on a flush, so at the very least lead out and bet as much as you did on the flop, if not more because of the bigger pot. The bet on the flop and then check when a draw hits is sometimes an obvious hit as well, with the nuts.

I agree. The only reason I would check would be if the turn gave me a nut (Kflush is not exactly a nut, but close enough for me). I do think a bet (same bet as flop) is good too, b/c someone might re-raise if they caught a smaller flush, call if they are still drawing, or fold with crap. An escalating bet would show I improved or want to lower pot odds for draws. If I had a small/medium flush, etc., I would do an equal bet or escalating bet vs check b/c they wouldnt put me on a flush necessarily. The check isnt as good b/c there are better hands that can beat me now or on the river.

Clearly no one has any of those hands in this case.

I would generally agree, but with 6-ppl in the pot and against "bad" players, they are liable to have anything on the turn.

[Fnord]

The biggest reason I checked the flop was that in a 6-way pot I don't win without showdown often enough. There is a strong case for a value bet and clearly in a limit game this is a bet. However, with the possibility of being raised off my hand or a hand like a set or 2 clubs with an Ace being out there hurting my pot equity; as first to act I decided to check and see what happens.

Generally, I interpret a 50c bet the same as a check. It could mean bottom pair, it could mean the nuts afraid to fold out other hands. I generally just ignore and call it unless my hand is hopeless or I was going to bet away.

[michael1123]

The reason I would check the turn (betting is also good) is to show weakness, b/c the previous bet I was the agressor.

Well, duh, obviously that's the attempt. But there's two problems with your attempt at deception here. 1. There's no real need for it. A bet that's exactly the size of your flop bet comes off as weak as well. 2. The check may send up red flags faster than the flop bet. Lets say they're putting you on AT or better. You bet, then a rag comes with 3 clubs and you check? Wouldn't you at least feign strength to try and prevent from being bluffed out, and not give a high club a free card?

If you bet on the flop on a draw, I think you should definitely bet on the turn when it hits. Going out of your pattern when you hit is too obvious.

[Krapp]

Well, duh, obviously that's the attempt. But there's two problems with your attempt at deception here. 1. There's no real need for it. A bet that's exactly the size of your flop bet comes off as weak as well.

Well its either a weak but or shows no improvement from the turn. Opps could still put you on top-pair, low kicker. A check definately gives either weakness, some type of ploy, or novice betting.

2. The check may send up red flags faster than the flop bet. Lets say they're putting you on AT or better. You bet, then a rag comes with 3 clubs and you check? Wouldn't you at least feign strength to try and prevent from being bluffed out, and not give a high club a free card?

Well a rag didnt exactly drop on the turn, it makes a straight and improves a diamond flush. However, I would also agree with you normally, but the 2x flop bet isnt that exciting. The check could mean missed straight/flush draw or 10-pair low kicker. Sure red flags could go up by opps, but again its only 2xBB. The normal play for me would be some type of bet but again with a semi-nut hand, I like the check as better option.

[VeraN]

I like the play a lot because you have so many outs that even if you do get called, you can raise even more once you hit a flush or straight. The pot would be huge and you would be able to lure in the other caller for another good bet. Now the hard part is figuring out how much to bet?

If you make the flush, I believe you could squeeze more money out as it's not as obvious as the straight.

If you get called and find out that the river didn't help, you could still bluff by betting a reasonable amount assuming that he was on a straight draw and didn't make it.