Any escape from this?

[LeFou]

Gotta love those ragged aces under the gun. Am I right that:
-opp should not have called the blind?
-opp should not have called the flop raise?
-the gods were smiling on opp and just too bad for me?

PokerStars Game #798853336: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) -
2004/10/25 - 11:33:25 (ET)
Table 'Geminid' Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: Kingred10 ($3.40 in chips)
Seat 2: whitiedamofo ($7.35 in chips)
Seat 3: Patos ($7.05 in chips)
Seat 4: wildbill0712 ($4.75 in chips)
Seat 5: mitchmoney ($3.75 in chips)
Seat 6: NuWere ($3.05 in chips)
Seat 8: Manakin ($12.40 in chips)
Seat 9: MoneyMan82 ($21.35 in chips)
Kingred10: posts small blind $0.05
whitiedamofo: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to NuWere [5d 3d]
Patos: calls $0.10
smgriffin leaves the table
wildbill0712: calls $0.10
mitchmoney: folds
NuWere: calls $0.10
Manakin: calls $0.10
MoneyMan82: calls $0.10
Kingred10: calls $0.05
whitiedamofo: checks
*** FLOP *** [5h 4d 2h]
Kingred10: checks
whitiedamofo: checks
Patos: bets $0.50
wildbill0712: folds
NuWere: raises $0.50 to $1
Manakin: folds
MoneyMan82: folds
Kingred10: folds
whitiedamofo: folds
Patos: calls $0.50
*** TURN *** [5h 4d 2h] [4c]
Patos: bets $5.95 and is all-in
NuWere: calls $1.95 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [5h 4d 2h 4c] [4s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Patos: shows [As 4h] (four of a kind, Fours)
NuWere: mucks hand
bigdaddyse joins the table at seat #7
Patos collected $6.30 from pot
NuWere leaves the table
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $6.60 | Rake $0.30
Board [5h 4d 2h 4c 4s]
Seat 1: Kingred10 (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: whitiedamofo (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 3: Patos showed [As 4h] and won ($6.30) with four of a kind, Fours
Seat 4: wildbill0712 folded on the Flop
Seat 5: mitchmoney folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: NuWere mucked [5d 3d] - a full house, Fours full of Fives
Seat 8: Manakin folded on the Flop
Seat 9: MoneyMan82 (button) folded on the Flop

[mike4066]

Gotta love those ragged aces under the gun. Am I right that:
-opp should not have called the blind?
-opp should not have called the flop raise?
-the gods were smiling on opp and just too bad for me?

The answer to those 3 questions are No, No, and No.

Your focusing on your opponents mistakes while completely ignoring the 3-4 you made in this hand.

Preflop:
You're playing 53s from a middle position what were you expecting to happen? Catch 2 pair, flop a baby flush draw, catch a straight? Just how many of those miracle flops have you caught?

Flop:
UTG leads out with an "almost" pot sized bet and you raise him.

Ok, I understand, you want control of the hand aggrssion is fine. But you have to have SOMETHING to backup your raise with, Top pair no kicker? your straight draw? Any pocket pair larger than 5 have you in a bad way.
I'm just curious, are you counting on hitting your draw in this hand or do you really expect your pair of 5's to hold up?

Turn:
UTG Moves all-in... What could be going through your mind right now that your 5's are good?
He bet the flop, you raised him, he called. Now on the turn he moves all-in..
This is called a stop and go. Your raise on the flop made him feel his second pair wasn't good. Now on the turn, all of the sudden He IMPROVED, now he's going to push his hand again.


It's time to start looking at things in a different way.

You can't treat NL ring games like a SnG. People WILL call in ring games. If your playing a SnG you can use that type of aggression to force them out but not in a ring game.


Lets play this hand back from UTG's Point of view.

A4o UTG, ok what the heck I'll limp.

Flop:
Raggy board, my 2 pair "might" be good when i read this board, but the 2 flush scares me. Since i'm first in the pot let me make a large enough bet to push out the flush draws and give my hand a chance.
I'll be 80% of the pot.. Bets .50

Crap I was raised, but its a minimum raise. I already put .50 cents in I might as well put in 50 more.

Turn:
Sweet, I hit my trips , still have the gutshot straight draw, and could make a full boat. I'm going all-in.

[LeFou]

Thanks, mike.

You're playing 53s from a middle position what were you expecting to happen? Catch 2 pair, flop a baby flush draw, catch a straight?

What I was hoping for was what I'm always hoping for (and what I got) with the little suited guys: the outside straight draw, with multiple other people playing big cards, slowplaying high pps, etc.

This is straight out of S/S -- my only poker book right now. (ToP is in the mail as we speak). Doyle advocates raising here.

I think I got excited because I had the TP in addition to the outside draw. I feel like I should have just moved in at that point.

UTG Moves all-in... What could be going through your mind right now that your 5's are good?

I gave him the ace, thus a gutshot and the best hand if I had Nada. Was thinking he had put me on the draw, 4 was no help if I was, and therefore yes I suppose I thought the 5s were good.

Had not-quite-enough outs against the four he was repping, but since I didn't believe him I discounted the pot odds. The reason I didn't believe him, of course, is that second button weak kicker wouldn't call the flop raise, and second button top kicker requires a ragged ace UTG.

from UTG's Point of view.

A4o UTG, ok what the heck I'll limp.

Flop:
Raggy board, my 2 pair "might" be good when i read this board,

What 2 pair?

Crap I was raised, but its a minimum raise. I already put .50 cents in I might as well put in 50 more.

All due respect, I don't see how this sequence of thoughts is most likely. Obviously it's what he was actually thinking -- based on what we now know he actually had.

During the hand this seemed more likey:

AJo UTG that'll play unless a big raise comes back...

Flop:
Raggy board, overcards and a gutshot lemme trim the field. Crap I was raised, but its a minimum raise. Some bastard playing A3.. or just a three. Screw it, I've got 3 to the flush just in case...

Turn:
Well, if he didn't have the straight already I'm not giving him odds to draw to it. Maybe he paired up but I've got outs against that.

Please don't take this as a "correction" or argument -- I'm just telling you my thought process. Or rather what my thought process suggested opp's thought process might be. Way off, you think?

Thanks for paying undue attention to this crappy little $3 hand...

[mike4066]

This is straight out of S/S -- my only poker book right now. (ToP is in the mail as we speak). Doyle advocates raising here.

That explains alot

I think I got excited because I had the TP in addition to the outside draw. I feel like I should have just moved in at that point.

You have a very weak top pair with no kicker, and a weak draw, you are treading on very thin ice with this hand. Your open ended straight draw is possibly tainted because of the 2 flush on the board.

What 2 pair?

That was susposed to be "2nd pair" sorry.

All due respect, I don't see how this sequence of thoughts is most likely. Obviously it's what he was actually thinking -- based on what we now know he actually had.

The raise you made won't scare him, he just put in $.50 why would he fold to $.50 more? A larger raise here might have done well.

Please don't take this as a "correction" or argument -- I'm just telling you my thought process. Or rather what my thought process suggested opp's thought process might be. Way off, you think?

Please correct me if you feel I'm wrong. I'm not trying to be an jerk I'm trying to get you to look at it different ways.

Thanks for paying undue attention to this crappy little $3 hand...

$3 or $30, doesn't matter to me. If I have time to respond I will.

Sorry if I seem like a bit of an ass during my first post.


Now that all of that is kind of cleared up, you have to be a little more careful applying Super System theory to micro limit holdem. Those are set more for high limit games with GOOD players. I don't believe they will hold up as well in micro limits.

But against GOOD opponents you can do well. Just look at the Gauntlet standings and who has the commanding lead of first place.

[DrNoChance]

This is straight out of S/S -- my only poker book right now. (ToP is in the mail as we speak). Doyle advocates raising here.

ToP will be the best poker book you'll ever read, IMO. I feel so much more like a real poker player now after reading it.

Fnord has said this many times, and mike4066 just said it too: Don't use Super System's advice in low limit HE games. Hands like 1-gap suited connectors can be nice with very tall stacks relative to the size of the blinds, but that sure isn't the case in most ring games I play (such as the Party Poker $25 NL rooms...50 x BB stacks don't make suited 1-gappers worth it most of the time).

[Corey]

1 reason why I refuse to play .5 / .10 and nicknamed the no foldem holdem tables.

In my opinion and this is total what I think. You think to yourself well its only 10c I am suited lets see what happens. So you call you hit top pair and raise only a dollar so what. And it goes on and on.

Thats why I dont play it yes maybe you can make the cheap buck because players wont fold that much because of the cheap blinds.....

but I agree with Mike you could of easily got out of that hand.

[mike4066]

I have a friend who plays .05/.10 NL on Poker stars. He plays ABC poker game and crushes the game.

He plays top 15-20% of hands, bets when he has a hand, call with pot odds (or if they are very close), folds to outrageous raises, and call down quite often wiht TP/TK

He's playing Tight / Passive and manages to kill the game.

At this limit 99% of the players you encounter aren't paying enough attention to how tight someone is playing. They don't know how to spot the sucker.

[LeFou]

You have a very weak top pair with no kicker, and a weak draw, you are treading on very thin ice with this hand.

Agreed. I'm starting another thread (in HE strategies) about when the kicker isn't so important.

you have to be a little more careful applying Super System theory to micro limit holdem. ...But against GOOD opponents you can do well. Just look at the Gauntlet standings and who has the commanding lead of first place.

Yeah, it seems like when there's at least a moderate amount of money on the table, I do better. In my (5 months of poker) life I've played about 10 tourneys with $10+ buyin. Finished first in 6 of 'em. I''ll take those results all year 'round if I can get 'em.

S/S is my only book just because of budget. Can't wait to expand the toolbox a bit.

[lonnie]

In my opinion and this is total what I think. You think to yourself well its only 10c I am suited lets see what happens.

Playing the same in low limit games is an excellent exercise in discipline. I sometimes play .01/.02 cent limit games to test my discipline and see if I can keep my VP$IP as low as it is on .50/1.00 games.

[gutshot]

1 reason why I refuse to play .5 / .10 and nicknamed the no foldem holdem tables.

In my opinion and this is total what I think. You think to yourself well its only 10c I am suited lets see what happens. So you call you hit top pair and raise only a dollar so what. And it goes on and on.

I play the .05/.10 NL at paradise. It is for this reason that I never come in for less than .50 if I'm making a raise. I probably limp with some hands that I should be raising, but don't want to put .50 in on. This often cuts the field in half. If it doesn't, a pot sized bet on the flop will.