Bet the Draw?

[goolick]

If you are holding something like A6s and the flop comes w/ 2 suited, is it adviseable to bet if you are in first position? What about last position? I usually check in first hoping to raise. In last if it is checked to me i usually check because if it is raised I will have to give it up.

[a500lbgorilla]

You check raise in EP with a flush draw?

-'rilla

[Sykedupp]

You check raise in EP with a flush draw?

-'rilla

Good deception..... Waste of chips.....

I might bet 1/2 pot as a feeler bet, either you will get re-raised and come to another decision (call:fold) or you will take the pot, or you will see a turn. On turn I'd slow down though.

-Chris

[thestrokes]

I usually check in first hoping to raise. In last if it is checked to me i usually check because if it is raised I will have to give it up.

Either way you're putting the same amunt of chips in the pot. Only advantage is you did the raising and you can try to scare people.

But dont even bother disguising you're hand againstweak players. none of them will notice anyway. See it as cheap as you can.

[Greedo017]

maybe this is just me, but i don't think checkraising is such a smooth move. the idea is to keep money out of the pot until you hit, not put it in. sure, you can keep pot odds, but it would be worth the decreased variance to me to just finesse it after i have a winner instead of when i'm waiting on one.

[a500lbgorilla]

maybe this is just me, but i don't think checkraising is such a smooth move. the idea is to keep money out of the pot until you hit, not put it in. sure, you can keep pot odds, but it would be worth the decreased variance to me to just finesse it after i hit and build the pot instead of before.

I wasn't suggesting it. It's a horrible move. I was wondering if I understood him correctly.

-'rilla

[Bo G]

I think you want money in the pot so I would bet 50%-75% of the pot.

[Fnord]

If you seek a simple answer, you won't find one.

How deep is the money?
How aggressive are the other player(s)? How often and how big do they bet?
What position are you in?
Will the other player(s) laydown hands?
Do you have any outs besides the flush draw?
Do you have a pair?
Do you have the nut flush draw?

[JeffreyGB]

I think you want money in the pot so I would bet 50%-75% of the pot.

Bo, why would you want to put extra money into a pot that you're going to lose 65% of the time? If you can win the pot outright or you're hiding your hand, this can be worth it. You don't want to bet here just to raise the level of the pot (with the possible exception of betting less than 35% of the pot, since technically that would still be +EV as it maps to your odds).

- Jeffrey

[Bo G]

For 2 reasons. People fold if they don't have good cards and when they do you might hit a flush and it is very well disguised as a top pair. People will call you all the way to the river thinking they have a 2 pair or higher kicker (as long as you don't make a huge turn bet when flush does come).

Betting 35% of the pot is giving your opponent exactly what he is looking for, information. I like to keep they guessing. Granted I will miss flush or straight more than I will hit it but when I do I will make a killing and a lot of time I win the pot by representing highest pair protecting against the flush.

[JeffreyGB]

Ok, then you're doing exactly what I said - betting to disguise and to semibluff (in hopes of a fold).

No problem with this. I just wanted to address that the EV for the bet in and of itself is negative.

You probably will want to (and likely do) mix this up with checking. I'd be curious about the numbers for how much you gain from this vs how much you lose the other 65% of the time.

[Bo G]

I mix it up because if you become to predictable you become a much easier player to play against. You checks, check-raises and bets to mix up your strategy so your opponents can't sit and wait on you.

One very usefull approach I find is in late position raising on a flush/straight draw because it most likely will get you a cheap card on turn if they call your raise.

[Fnord]

I mix it up because if you become to predictable you become a much easier player to play against. You checks, check-raises and bets to mix up your strategy so your opponents can't sit and wait on you.

Mixing it up is over-rated.

[rdqlus]

Why bet your draw to the nut flush??? You'll likely drive out someone who is drawing to a smaller flush which is who you want in the hand with you to pay you off when the flush finally comes.

A check-raise is even worse ... your opponent will likely shut down and not pay off your flush if it hits as the board will have become pretty scary for someone with just top pair. It's easy for your opponent to let his hand go at that point.

mj

[a500lbgorilla]

Why bet your draw to the nut flush??? You'll likely drive out someone who is drawing to a smaller flush which is who you want in the hand with you to pay you off when the flush finally comes.

A check-raise is even worse ... your opponent will likely shut down and not pay off your flush if it hits as the board will have become pretty scary for someone with just top pair. It's easy for your opponent to let his hand go at that point.

mj

You bet your draws to conceal you hand and get action from beaten hands when and if you do hit. You may drive out smaller flush draws but if you just check-call or call down till you hit your flush THEN raise, it'll be a transparent play. Also, flush over flush sorts of hands arn't common enough to be the main reason why you wouldn't bet your draw.

-'rilla