Bet this river?

[FishMagician]

Try to extract more or tuck tail and check behind scared of a boat?

#Game No : 1857530940
***** Hand History for Game 1857530940 *****
$50 NL Hold'em - Thursday, April 07, 02:32:00 EDT 2005
Table Table 37248 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: FishMagician ( $52.75 )
Seat 5: dan_jurus ( $68.08 )
Seat 8: Viriditus ( $95.4 )
Seat 9: smccoll7 ( $71.22 )
Seat 10: repub2020 ( $27.6 )
Seat 4: drahx ( $45.85 )
Seat 7: pushkin71 ( $60.15 )
Seat 2: Fuodd ( $55.9 )
Seat 6: sammytx ( $62.45 )
Seat 3: TimmyTucker5 ( $30.65 )
sammytx posts small blind [$0.25].
pushkin71 posts big blind [$0.5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to FishMagician [ Ah 7h ]
>You have options at $1,250 Players Club Feeroll(300316) Table #31 Table!.
>You have options at Table 37412 Table!.
Viriditus calls [$0.5].
smccoll7 calls [$0.5].
repub2020 folds.
FishMagician calls [$0.5].
Fuodd folds.
TimmyTucker5 folds.
drahx calls [$0.5].
dan_jurus folds.
sammytx folds.
pushkin71 checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3h, Th, Js ]
pushkin71 checks.
Viriditus checks.
smccoll7 bets [$0.5].
FishMagician raises [$3].
drahx folds.
pushkin71 folds.
Viriditus folds.
smccoll7 raises [$5].
>You have options at Table 37412 Table!.
FishMagician calls [$2.5].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 6h ]
smccoll7 bets [$5].
FishMagician raises [$15].
smccoll7 calls [$10].
** Dealing River ** [ 6d ]
smccoll7 checks.
FishMagician ???

[evman150]

I'd probably just check it down. There's a decent chance he could be playing JJ or TT (probably not since he limped), or more likely 33 or JT, so I think checking here is a good idea. The reraise on the flop and the check call on 4th when the flush hits make it seem like a set is the most likely thing. But the check on the river is odd. If he feels like you have the flush why not bet out and put you to a decision? That check is what tells me has JT and not a set, and that his hand is now partially counterfeited. A check is still the best play though, because he probably won't call much with his weak two pair, and if he does call you're most likely beat.

So I'd definitely check, even though he most likely has JT.

[lovemachine]

i'd bet it out, i think you probably got him beat. he bet small on the flop looking for a reraise, which he got so he reraised again. this means he could have a set but i think he likely has 10J. he didn't think you hit the flush so he went on to bet the turn but was cautious when you reraised so he just called. if he hit on the river i think he might have bet it out. he might have even tried a somewhat small bet again hoping for a reraise like he did on the flop. if he had trips he might have even reraised you on the turn, not believing your flush since you bet the flop. i doubt he is on a lower flush either, i dont think he would have reraised you on the flop with a lower flush draw, especcially a min raise because that will obviously not get you out of the hand. if he has 10J and has top 2 pair, dont make too huge of a bet or you will get him to fold. i'd throw out something along the lines of $10-$20 somewhere near the size of your turn bet because he would probably still call with 10J, whereas he would probably lay down his hand to a pot sized bet. (all this being said, i would now like to say im not a nl cash game player, although i did play today for about 30mins for the first time in months and managed to win $10 total after losing a huge pot early, and i would like to learn cash games over the summer in addition to tournaments) so i could very well be wrong about all this, but i'd be interested in hearing the results to see if i was right or completely off.

[lovemachine]

was typing my response so i didn't see evman's posts but he seems to think as i did and has the guy on JT, but if you have a guy on 2 pair, why not throw out a bet out there that isn't too big to get him to call you with his top 2 pair.

[dsaxton]

A set would have raised stronger on the flop, and a boat wouldn't check the river. He almost certaintly flopped top two pair and is now concerned both about the flush possibility and the board pair. You probably have the best hand, and you should bet the maximum amount that he'll call.

[FishMagician]

I think I miss out on alot of money in situations like this on the river. Either checking behind or just calling bets with what ends up being the best hand. Everyone's guess of J 10 was logical, but not all poker players are logical...same result though, and still a mistake for me not to make another bet. I assume by the way he played he rest of the hand he would have called for another $10.


** Dealing River ** [ 6d ]
smccoll7 checks.
FishMagician checks.
smccoll7 shows [ Kd, Ks ] two pairs, kings and sixes.
FishMagician shows [ Ah, 7h ] a flush, ace high.
FishMagician wins $41.6 from the main pot with a flush, ace high.

[dsaxton]

Raising on the river is dubious unless you have the nuts or close to it. The fact that you are probably holding the best hand is not enough reason to raise, you also should be confident your opponent is holding an inferior hand which he would be willing to call a raise with.

For example, I was playing a hand yesterday where I had 7-7 and called a raise preflop. The flop came 9 high and the guy checked and I checked as well (probably was not the right play, but I didn't feel like getting check-raised). The turn was another 9, the guy bet and I called. The river was another 9, and I made a small bet with my full house trying to get a call from A-K, A-Q or A-J. Instead this guy raises me thinking his A-J was good, and I call, winning a bigger pot. The fact is that even if his A-J high was good, there was no value in raising since I would just fold any worse hand facing a raise.

[a500lbgorilla]

Depends on the opponent. He might be a fish in call down mode with something as silly as AJ. Or he might be a weak/tight rock coming out of his shell with JJ.

-'rilla

[FishMagician]

This brings me to another question - I play 3-4 tables at a time now. I'm pretty sure alot of people here play as many. My question is - can you really get a read on someone while playing 4 tables? That's about 30-36 players to pay attention to. Basically, if someone has made some really fishy plays, I notice it, or if one player is playing super aggressive, but other than that I'm generally not sure. Do you guys use pokertracker/playerview as your 'reads' alot, or do you actually get your reads by paying attention to the tables? If it's the latter, I guess I just need to try harder.

I've been a consistent winner at the limits I play for a few months now simply by playing tight and knowing what the correct play is in a general sense, and I guess because I've been winning at a comfortable rate, I haven't really worried too much about getting much better. But now I think I'm at the point in my progression and my bankroll that I might be able to move up, but I think I would have to take it more seriously. I don't think I could just rely on other people being bad at the $200 or $400 tables like I do on the $50 or $100 tables.

[dsaxton]

Depends on the opponent. He might be a fish in call down mode with something as silly as AJ. Or he might be a weak/tight rock coming out of his shell with JJ.

-'rilla

I wasn't really talking about what you can expect him to have. He showed down A-J offsuit.

[dsaxton]

This brings me to another question - I play 3-4 tables at a time now. I'm pretty sure alot of people here play as many. My question is - can you really get a read on someone while playing 4 tables? That's about 30-36 players to pay attention to. Basically, if someone has made some really fishy plays, I notice it, or if one player is playing super aggressive, but other than that I'm generally not sure. Do you guys use pokertracker/playerview as your 'reads' alot, or do you actually get your reads by paying attention to the tables? If it's the latter, I guess I just need to try harder.

Generally while multi-tabling (I multi-table at 5 max tables, so paying special attention to individual opponents can be difficult), I'll pay particular attention to an opponent only if I see an obvious opportunity to make money. If I see a player calling big bets to the river with weak hands, or if I see a player playing overly aggressively, I'll adjust my play according against that player, but otherwise I'll just play mostly "textbook" poker.

I was in Borders the other day and was looking at Harrington's book on no limit holdem tournament strategy, and one suggestion he made about observing other players was to begin by devoting a lot of your attention to the players to your immediate right and immediate left, since these are the players against which you're most likely to find yourself in a situation to use the information. Seems like good advice.

Also, f you want to get better at figuring people out, play heads-up. This, I think, is one of the best ways to practice the psychological aspect of the game.

[DoGGz]

I believe the saying is

"Bet for value"

This applies perfectly in this situation. You have a monster hand and you are scared of the nuts, when the other guy is passive. So what do you do when you just have tptk? Fold to any bet?

[ender555]

Fish, this isn't really on topic with the thread, I just read the part where you said you have been consistently winning at ring for a while by playing tight and making smart plays. Do you ever bluff or loosen up a bit?

i think my problem is i'm too loose aggressive. i always think that playing tight will just kill profit but if it doesn't i might give that a shot...

[FishMagician]

I don't think anyone will tell you playing tight will kill profit. Playing weak can kill profit. I don't think I play weak either, but every once in a while I feel like I could make a move if I was more sure of what type of opponent I was facing.

As far as bluffing/making moves, I do alot of raising pf and alot of repping flops. I pretty much make a continuation bet regardless of flop, (unless I get a bunch of callers) but I don't know if that kind of thing counts as bluffing. I think it's pretty much standard. I generally fast play all my big hands, and I do alot of semi-bluffing, so I'm doing alot of betting, trying to put pressure on people. Basically If I'm in a pot I'm leading out and making other people make decisions.

So what do you do when you just have tptk? Fold to any bet?

I don't see how this is relevant. I'm not folding this hand, and this hand is on the river. If I have tptk on the river, that means someone has stayed with me through flop bet and probably a turn bet. In most cases, there's a pretty good chance I would actually fold that hand to a river bet. I almost definitely would not bet it, that I'm sure of.

[Greedo017]

you reraised to 1.5x the pot with a flush draw?