JJ with a Qxx flop

[JeffreyGB]

Do you fold this? Raise on the flop?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (10 handed) converter

UTG+2 ($50)
MP1 ($18.75)
MP2 ($93.05)
MP3 ($38.8)
CO ($71.25)
Button ($50.6)
SB ($57.15)
Hero ($28.4)
UTG ($49.75)
UTG+1 ($25.05)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J, J. UTG+2 posts a blind of $0.5. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.50, UTG+2 (poster) checks, 2 folds, MP3 raises to $2, 3 folds, Hero calls $1.50, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds.

Flop: ($5.25) 5, 2, Q (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets $3, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $8.25

[Element187]

i would reraise preflop with JJ to see if he had AA/KK or AK

[dsaxton]

Yes, reraise preflop, but make roughly the same reraise which you would make with A-A or K-K. If he raises, fold, if he calls, it's a pretty difficult situation. I would probably just check since essentially the only hands you can beat at this point are A-K and 10-10, and he won't fold any winning hand. After the flop I would check-call or check-fold depending upon the size of the bets and the cards which come on later streets (e.g., if a jack comes, your plans change drastically).

[JeffreyGB]

I like my preflop. Given that I'm not changing that (I used to play it the way you guys suggest...this is working out better for me), would you bet or check/fold that flop?

[Element187]

depends, you have to narrow down the information.

he obviously has AA/KK/QQ/AK/TT


if i was the opponent with AK or TT i will throw out a continuation bet on the flop no matter what hits and see what develops.


reraising him on the flop will let you know if your beat or not.

[JeffreyGB]

Why check-raise (what a reraise would be) rather than simply raising to begin with? I don't see the point, save spending more money when you're behind (unless having a specific read on a player).

[dalecooper]

Why check-raise (what a reraise would be) rather than simply raising to begin with? I don't see the point, save spending more money when you're behind (unless having a specific read on a player).

The point is that it's a stronger move. Anyone who actually flopped trip queens here would probably check-raise. You have a good hand, but you're repping a better one. The odds of him having a hand that he can call or re-raise you with aren't that great... basically if he has aces, kings, or AQ (or maybe KQ) he can call your check-raise, or even re-raise you. But if he has tens, nines, AK, AJ, he's folding.

You mentioned spending more money, but this really is an interesting hand for the specific reason that he bet that dangerous flop. Your check-raise is going MOST likely inspire one of two actions:

1. A big fat re-raise, in which case you can safely fold
2. A fold

If he puts money in the pot here with AK (which is in my opinion his most likely holdings) and then you check-raise him, you're spending more to make more. He's going to fold, unless he's stupid, so you're gaining from his attempt to steal. So not only does the check-raise put you in a stronger position, but it also gains you more. The only question is how likely you think it is that he doesn't have the queen, and if you believe it's +EV to check-raise here. Personally i think it's about 50/50 that he has the queen or a higher pocket pair (which he won't fold), vs. having a lower pair or a no pair, no queen hand such as AK. So if you've got a $5 pot approx pre-flop, and he bets out $3 (a pretty typical continuation bet) on the flop, then you check-raise - let's say you raise from $3 to $6:

1. half the time you gain $8 ($5 pot + his $3 bet)
2. half the time you lose $6 (your call + raise; we're not including the existing pot as a loss), when he calls or re-raises

Looks like a positive expectation to me, although it will be frustrating when he plays back at you and you have to fold. And of course, I'm just guessing that he'll fold half the time. More experienced players should weigh in with their opinions on that.

[dsaxton]

The point is that it's a stronger move.

Yeah, and really expensive.

What happens when you get called? Do you continue dumping money into the pot with a middle pair, or check in embarassment?

[dalecooper]

The point is that it's a stronger move.

Yeah, and really expensive.

What happens when you get called? Do you continue dumping money into the pot with a middle pair, or check in embarassment?

There's no room for pride in poker. I check/fold, a.k.a. roll over and die. Pride costs you money. Maintaining unsuccessful bluffs and semi-bluffs costs you money. I do this quite a bit with AK, just to name one example - raise pre-flop, lead out on an unhelpful flop, check/fold the turn. In the long run it's a winning play, and that's all I care about.

I think at times that too many players have read or heard that aggressive poker is winning poker, and think that means uncontrolled aggression from the start of the hand until you either bust the other player, or are busted yourself. There's a lot of wiggle room. Even power moves can be followed by a shrug and a fold. Who cares? 'nother hand right around the bend.

[dsaxton]

The point is that it's a stronger move.

Yeah, and really expensive.

What happens when you get called? Do you continue dumping money into the pot with a middle pair, or check in embarassment?

There's no room for pride in poker. I check/fold, a.k.a. roll over and die. Pride costs you money. Maintaining unsuccessful bluffs and semi-bluffs costs you money. I do this quite a bit with AK, just to name one example - raise pre-flop, lead out on an unhelpful flop, check/fold the turn. In the long run it's a winning play, and that's all I care about.

I think at times that too many players have read or heard that aggressive poker is winning poker, and think that means uncontrolled aggression from the start of the hand until you either bust the other player, or are busted yourself. There's a lot of wiggle room. Even power moves can be followed by a shrug and a fold. Who cares? 'nother hand right around the bend.

Ok, but what does this have to do with why you should check-raise?

[dalecooper]

Ok, but what does this have to do with why you should check-raise?

Nothing. I already explained the purpose of a check-raise here. Which by the way I wouldn't do every time, but it's a valid move given the situation... maybe done one time out of three, just to keep things unpredictable.

[danhole12]

he obviously has AA/KK/QQ/AK/TT

Why is it obviously one of those hands?

[dsaxton]

I already explained the purpose of a check-raise here.

"Because it's a strong play" is not a very good argument for a wild raise.

When should you not check-raise, if the fact that it's a strong play is a good enough reason to do it?

[dalecooper]

I already explained the purpose of a check-raise here.

"Because it's a strong play" is not a very good argument for a wild raise.

When should you not check-raise, if the fact that it's a strong play is a good enough reason to do it?

A lot of my thinking was based on a misread actually. For some reason I thought the flop had two queens on it. I think check-raising a flop like that is a good idea some of the time because most players are unlikely to bet out when they flop trips, and if you just lead with a bet your opponent won't respect it because of that, and will often call - with or without a queen in their hand. Then you don't know where you are. Anyway... on this actual hand with just a single overcard, I think he should have led with a strong bet and not checked. That's a bad idea when you have the probable best hand and the board is not that interesting. If he raises you he's got an overpair, or AQ, and you can let it go; if he just calls he's probably on AK, and you just don't want to see an ace or king the rest of the way.

[ihategnomes]

i would reraise preflop with JJ to see if he had AA/KK or AK

Not so much, you a horribly out of position for the rest of the hand, your decent with JJ, but what happens if one of the 12 over cards hit? Turn into a passive piece of shit and lose chips?

re-raising him on the flop will let you know if your beat or not.

I can find better spots for my money. If you re-raise, then check fold, that looks weak and maybe you can set something up with it later in the session. If you re-raise, then bet out at the flop, your doing so into preflop aggression without the benefit of a read out of position. This is not a situation I want to be in. Without reads you played preflop how I would have, then I would have check-folded. Reads could very much change the play of this hand.