QQ vs unbeliever - double checkraised

[SmackinYaUp]

This guy thought I was stealing his blinds again, I was raising a lot preflop but playing pretty ABC post flop. My stack was already built primarily off of him. He never believed me, and I happened to get raising hands whenever I was sb vs his bb headsup. I almost pushed after the first checkraise, but I got nervous and decided to see what he did on the turn. He checkraised me again, and I thought 2 pair was most likely, but then I thought about his play, thought about my previous overpairs, and pushed. Is this a really stupid push vs 2 checkraises?


***** Hand History for Game 2184148031 *****
$100 NL Hold'em - Friday, June 10, 03:09:07 EDT 2005
Table Table 36825 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 1: SmackinYaUp ( $192.75 )
Seat 2: TomerSachar ( $122.2 )
Seat 4: GREEZEE ( $122.3 )
Seat 6: docleedc ( $172.29 )
Seat 3: Torro19 ( $100 )
TomerSachar posts small blind [$0.5].
Torro19 posts big blind [$1].
GREEZEE posts big blind + dead [$1.5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to SmackinYaUp [ Qh Qs ]
GREEZEE checks.
SmackinYaUp raises [$4].
TomerSachar calls [$3.5].
Torro19 folds.
GREEZEE folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jd, 6c, 8h ]
TomerSachar checks.
SmackinYaUp bets [$7].
TomerSachar raises [$14].
SmackinYaUp calls [$7].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7c ]
TomerSachar checks.
SmackinYaUp bets [$20].
TomerSachar raises [$40].
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SmackinYaUp raises [$130].
TomerSachar is all-In [$64.2]

[dalecooper]

Based on your read on him - or on his read of you - it's very possible he just has a pair of jacks. That's a scary board though, I'd be very concerned about the straight. I think you would have done well to reraise on the flop. That's what I call the "I'm serious, bitch!" raise.

[SmackinYaUp]

Yea, you're right I should have punched it on the flop and avoided seeing any overcards. He had TPTK and my hand was good for about $120.

[alias2211]

Good post. Here is how I see it:

Pot = $10.50 on flop
you bet 7 to make it 17
he raises you 7 to make it 31

At this point, I bet the pot or consider pushing, depending on my read of the opponent. I probably would have pushed when he came back at me w/ a min raise. Here, a very hard reraise or push on his raise would give you enough information based on his reaction. You essentially make this bet on the turn, but you've given him the benefit of an additional card to make his hand. Get that hand overwith right there, either he hit a set or 2 pair or he didn't, and you know don't want to give him a chance to draw out without making him pay for it.

Winning $15 on the flop w/ QQ is much better than losing $35 with them had he hit on the flop. Overpairs are not made for stringing someone along, they're just too fragile. I am thinking that when that 7c came on turn you didn't like it one bit. I stopped trying to make my overpairs worth more than they actually are in a given hand. Of course here, they were worth his stack, so nice job

[SmackinYaUp]

Good post. Here is how I see it:

Pot = $10.50 on flop
you bet 7 to make it 17
he raises you 7 to make it 31

At this point, I bet the pot or consider pushing, depending on my read of the opponent. I probably would have pushed when he came back at me w/ a min raise. Here, a very hard reraise or push on his raise would give you enough information based on his reaction. You essentially make this bet on the turn, but you've given him the benefit of an additional card to make his hand. Get that hand overwith right there, either he hit a set or 2 pair or he didn't, and you know don't want to give him a chance to draw out without making him pay for it.

Winning $15 on the flop w/ QQ is much better than losing $35 with them had he hit on the flop. Overpairs are not made for stringing someone along, they're just too fragile. I am thinking that when that 7c came on turn you didn't like it one bit. I stopped trying to make my overpairs worth more than they actually are in a given hand. Of course here, they were worth his stack, so nice job

You are completely right, and I agree 100%, thanks for the input!

[Gatlin Dan]

Generally speaking, If he's check-raising instead of slow-playing, he is saying he has something worth playing. If he check-raises twice I'm going to tend to think he's full of shit. Why check-raise on the turn. If you had a hand worth check-raising the flop, you're going to want to get the money in on the turn and eliminate the risk of giving a free card that could beat you. If he check-raises you twice, there's a good chance you're not going to let the hand go anyway. If you're in a position where you are check-raised twice, you are probably pot-committed. If it's heads up, I am going to pay him off even if he does hold a hand better than mine. That's valuable information you are paying for. I might lose that buy-in, but heads up you have to be thinking about and making moves and gaining information for future hands.
I am going to want to know what situations would cause that player to make a play like that, especially if there's any kind of chance we will bump heads at a later date once again.

[SmackinYaUp]

I know that I have double checkraised people with sets before in order to look like I was full of shit. I would want them to think that my checkraise on the flop followed by a check on the turn was a failed bluff, only to have them bet into me again and get reraised hard by me.

Him doing that twice based on my propensity for betting into every check would be a great play to tie me to the pot with an inferior hand. However, he really over valued his hand. I know that its hard to believe me sometimes, but when I call his checkraise and then lead again for a large bet on the turn, its hard to imagine pulling that checkraise again with TPTK. Betting into me or just calling me down would have been better in my opinion.

But anyways, I've started pushing into resistance on the flop with big overpairs on non threatening boards. If the board is all face cards, or something like 89T 2-suited then I would be wary of 2pair hands, strong draws, or other made hands. If its a pretty raggedy board with maybe a jack high I'm going to push. So far its broken 2 people, but I've ran into one set as well. If I meet resistance on the turn or river then I'm more willing to slow down or stop completely.

At my fishy level, does anyone think this type of play will make money or lose money? I do get some outrageous calls, so I don't think its necessarily an only get called by better hands scenario. Of course, this would have to be read dependent. If the rock raises me, I damn near insta-fold.

[SmackinYaUp]

I think its a good thing to push these hands. It seems like people overplay their hands on the flop more often. Sets and better tend to wait for the turn. This is just one hand though. Ive only played about 4 pots like this so I guess my sample is too small to come to any conclusions.

***** Hand History for Game 2191618194 *****
$100 NL Hold'em - Saturday, June 11, 17:27:54 EDT 2005
Table Table 37057 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 5: white3990 ( $92.5 )
Seat 6: SmackinYaUp ( $174.31 )
Seat 4: coledawg1080 ( $39.05 )
Seat 3: JonnyBoy3 ( $43.8 )
Seat 2: MAK_BULL ( $47 )
SmackinYaUp posts small blind [$0.5].
MAK_BULL posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to SmackinYaUp [ Kc Ks ]
>You have options at Table 37196 (6 max) Table!.
JonnyBoy3 folds.
coledawg1080 folds.
white3990 raises [$3].
SmackinYaUp raises [$6.5].
MAK_BULL folds.
white3990 calls [$4].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 6c, Qd, 7h ]
SmackinYaUp bets [$10].
white3990 raises [$20].
>You have options at Table 37196 (6 max) Table!.
SmackinYaUp raises [$65].
white3990 is all-In [$65.5]
SmackinYaUp calls [$10.5].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 4d ]
** Dealing River ** [ Tc ]
katanaAK has joined the table.
SmackinYaUp shows [ Kc, Ks ] a pair of kings.
white3990 shows [ Ah, Qc ] a pair of queens.
SmackinYaUp wins $184 from the main pot with a pair of kings.