Fnord v Sykedupp heads-up

[Fnord]

*********** # 1 **************
PokerStars Game #1882775304: Tournament #8896034, Hold'em No Limit - Match Round I, Level I (10/20) - 2005/06/12 - 04:22:27 (ET) Table '8896034 1' One on One Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Sykedupp (1500 in chips)
Seat 2: HenryFnord (1500 in chips)
Sykedupp: posts small blind 10
HenryFnord: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HenryFnord [Ah 7c]
Sykedupp: calls 10
HenryFnord: checks
*** FLOP *** [5d 2s 5c]
HenryFnord: checks
Sykedupp: checks
*** TURN *** [5d 2s 5c] [9s]
HenryFnord: bets 40
Sykedupp: folds
HenryFnord collected 40 from pot
HenryFnord: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 40 | Rake 0
Board [5d 2s 5c 9s]
Seat 1: Sykedupp (button) (small blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 2: HenryFnord (big blind) collected (40)

*********** # 2 **************
PokerStars Game #1882776723: Tournament #8896034, Hold'em No Limit - Match Round I, Level I (10/20) - 2005/06/12 - 04:22:57 (ET) Table '8896034 1' One on One Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Sykedupp (1480 in chips)
Seat 2: HenryFnord (1520 in chips)
HenryFnord: posts small blind 10
Sykedupp: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HenryFnord [Qc Tc]
HenryFnord: calls 10
Sykedupp: checks
*** FLOP *** [5c Kh Td]
Sykedupp: bets 40
HenryFnord: calls 40
*** TURN *** [5c Kh Td] [7s]
Sykedupp: bets 80
HenryFnord: calls 80
*** RIVER *** [5c Kh Td 7s] [2c]
Sykedupp: checks
HenryFnord: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Sykedupp: shows [4h Js] (high card King)
HenryFnord: shows [Qc Tc] (a pair of Tens) HenryFnord collected 280 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 280 | Rake 0
Board [5c Kh Td 7s 2c]
Seat 1: Sykedupp (big blind) showed [4h Js] and lost with high card King
Seat 2: HenryFnord (button) (small blind) showed [Qc Tc] and won (280) with a pair of Tens

*********** # 3 **************
PokerStars Game #1882778286: Tournament #8896034, Hold'em No Limit - Match Round I, Level I (10/20) - 2005/06/12 - 04:23:31 (ET) Table '8896034 1' One on One
Seat #1 is the button Seat 1: Sykedupp (1340 in chips)
Seat 2: HenryFnord (1660 in chips)
Sykedupp: posts small blind 10
HenryFnord: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HenryFnord [4c 5h]
Sykedupp: raises 40 to 60
HenryFnord: calls 40
*** FLOP *** [6s 7d 5s]
HenryFnord: checks
Sykedupp: checks
*** TURN *** [6s 7d 5s] [Jd]
HenryFnord: checks
Sykedupp: checks
*** RIVER *** [6s 7d 5s Jd] [8h]
HenryFnord: checks
Sykedupp: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
HenryFnord: shows [4c 5h] (a straight, Four to Eight)
Sykedupp: mucks hand
HenryFnord collected 120 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 120 | Rake 0
Board [6s 7d 5s Jd 8h]
Seat 1: Sykedupp (button) (small blind) mucked [Ts Kc]
Seat 2: HenryFnord (big blind) showed [4c 5h] and won (120) with a straight, Four to Eight

*********** # 4 **************
PokerStars Game #1882779758: Tournament #8896034, Hold'em No Limit - Match Round I, Level I (10/20) - 2005/06/12 - 04:24:03 (ET) Table '8896034 1' One on One Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Sykedupp (1280 in chips)
Seat 2: HenryFnord (1720 in chips)
HenryFnord: posts small blind 10
Sykedupp: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HenryFnord [6d Tc]
HenryFnord: calls 10
Sykedupp: checks
*** FLOP *** [Ts Ah 9s]
Sykedupp: checks
HenryFnord: bets 40
Sykedupp: folds
HenryFnord collected 40 from pot
HenryFnord: shows [6d Tc] (a pair of Tens)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 40 | Rake 0
Board [Ts Ah 9s]
Seat 1: Sykedupp (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: HenryFnord (button) (small blind) collected (40)

*********** # 5 **************
PokerStars Game #1882781545: Tournament #8896034, Hold'em No Limit - Match Round I, Level I (10/20) - 2005/06/12 - 04:24:40 (ET) Table '8896034 1' One on One Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Sykedupp (1260 in chips)
Seat 2: HenryFnord (1740 in chips)
Sykedupp: posts small blind 10
HenryFnord: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HenryFnord [6c 7s]
Sykedupp: raises 60 to 80
HenryFnord: folds
Sykedupp collected 40 from pot
Sykedupp: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 40 | Rake 0
Seat 1: Sykedupp (button) (small blind) collected (40)
Seat 2: HenryFnord (big blind) folded before Flop

*********** # 6 **************
PokerStars Game #1882782228: Tournament #8896034, Hold'em No Limit - Match Round I, Level I (10/20) - 2005/06/12 - 04:24:54 (ET) Table '8896034 1' One on One Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Sykedupp (1280 in chips)
Seat 2: HenryFnord (1720 in chips)
HenryFnord: posts small blind 10
Sykedupp: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HenryFnord [3s 9s]
HenryFnord: folds
Sykedupp collected 20 from pot
Sykedupp: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 20 | Rake 0
Seat 1: Sykedupp (big blind) collected (20)
Seat 2: HenryFnord (button) (small blind) folded before Flop

*********** # 7 **************
PokerStars Game #1882782706: Tournament #8896034, Hold'em No Limit - Match Round I, Level I (10/20) - 2005/06/12 - 04:25:04 (ET) Table '8896034 1' One on One Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Sykedupp (1290 in chips)
Seat 2: HenryFnord (1710 in chips)
Sykedupp: posts small blind 10
HenryFnord: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HenryFnord [3h 7s]
Sykedupp: calls 10
HenryFnord: checks
*** FLOP *** [Td 7h 2c]
HenryFnord: checks
Sykedupp: bets 60
HenryFnord: calls 60
*** TURN *** [Td 7h 2c] [5d]
HenryFnord: checks
Sykedupp: bets 80
HenryFnord: calls 80
*** RIVER *** [Td 7h 2c 5d] [Ad]
HenryFnord: checks
Sykedupp: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
HenryFnord: shows [3h 7s] (a pair of Sevens)
Sykedupp: mucks hand
HenryFnord collected 320 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 320 | Rake 0
Board [Td 7h 2c 5d Ad]
Seat 1: Sykedupp (button) (small blind) mucked [Qd 2h]
Seat 2: HenryFnord (big blind) showed [3h 7s] and won (320) with a pair of Sevens

*********** # 8 **************
PokerStars Game #1882784377: Tournament #8896034, Hold'em No Limit - Match Round I, Level I (10/20) - 2005/06/12 - 04:25:40 (ET) Table '8896034 1' One on One Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Sykedupp (1130 in chips)
Seat 2: HenryFnord (1870 in chips)
HenryFnord: posts small blind 10
Sykedupp: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HenryFnord [9d 6d]
HenryFnord: calls 10
Sykedupp: raises 40 to 60
HenryFnord: calls 40
*** FLOP *** [3s Js Kh]
Sykedupp: checks
HenryFnord: checks
*** TURN *** [3s Js Kh] [Kc]
Sykedupp: bets 40
HenryFnord: folds
Sykedupp collected 120 from pot
Sykedupp: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 120 | Rake 0
Board [3s Js Kh Kc]
Seat 1: Sykedupp (big blind) collected (120)
Seat 2: HenryFnord (button) (small blind) folded on the Turn

*********** # 9 **************
PokerStars Game #1882785570: Tournament #8896034, Hold'em No Limit - Match Round I, Level I (10/20) - 2005/06/12 - 04:26:06 (ET) Table '8896034 1' One on One Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Sykedupp (1190 in chips)
Seat 2: HenryFnord (1810 in chips)
Sykedupp: posts small blind 10
HenryFnord: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HenryFnord [4d Ks]
Sykedupp: raises 40 to 60
HenryFnord: folds
Sykedupp collected 40 from pot
Sykedupp: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 40 | Rake 0
Seat 1: Sykedupp (button) (small blind) collected (40)
Seat 2: HenryFnord (big blind) folded before Flop

*********** # 10 **************
PokerStars Game #1882786226: Tournament #8896034, Hold'em No Limit - Match Round I, Level I (10/20) - 2005/06/12 - 04:26:19 (ET) Table '8896034 1' One on One Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Sykedupp (1210 in chips)
Seat 2: HenryFnord (1790 in chips)
HenryFnord: posts small blind 10
Sykedupp: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HenryFnord [9h Ks]
HenryFnord: calls 10
Sykedupp: raises 40 to 60
HenryFnord: calls 40
*** FLOP *** [As 6c Qc]
Sykedupp: bets 60
HenryFnord: folds
Sykedupp collected 120 from pot
Sykedupp: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 120 | Rake 0
Board [As 6c Qc]
Seat 1: Sykedupp (big blind) collected (120)
Seat 2: HenryFnord (button) (small blind) folded on the Flop

*********** # 11 **************
PokerStars Game #1882787338: Tournament #8896034, Hold'em No Limit - Match Round I, Level I (10/20) - 2005/06/12 - 04:26:43 (ET) Table '8896034 1' One on One
Seat #1 is the button Seat 1: Sykedupp (1270 in chips)
Seat 2: HenryFnord (1730 in chips)
Sykedupp: posts small blind 10
HenryFnord: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HenryFnord [8d Ks]
Sykedupp: folds
HenryFnord collected 20 from pot
HenryFnord: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 20 | Rake 0
Seat 1: Sykedupp (button) (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: HenryFnord (big blind) collected (20)

*********** # 12 **************
PokerStars Game #1882787784: Tournament #8896034, Hold'em No Limit - Match Round I, Level I (10/20) - 2005/06/12 - 04:26:53 (ET) Table '8896034 1' One on One Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Sykedupp (1260 in chips)
Seat 2: HenryFnord (1740 in chips)
HenryFnord: posts small blind 10
Sykedupp: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HenryFnord [2d Qh]
HenryFnord: folds
Sykedupp collected 20 from pot
Sykedupp: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 20 | Rake 0
Seat 1: Sykedupp (big blind) collected (20)
Seat 2: HenryFnord (button) (small blind) folded before Flop

*********** # 13 **************
PokerStars Game #1882788251: Tournament #8896034, Hold'em No Limit - Match Round I, Level I (10/20) - 2005/06/12 - 04:27:03 (ET) Table '8896034 1' One on One Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Sykedupp (1270 in chips)
Seat 2: HenryFnord (1730 in chips)
Sykedupp: posts small blind 10
HenryFnord: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HenryFnord [8h 8s]
Sykedupp: raises 40 to 60
HenryFnord: raises 140 to 200
Sykedupp: calls 140
*** FLOP *** [8d 5h 5d]
HenryFnord: checks
Sykedupp: checks
*** TURN *** [8d 5h 5d] [9s]
HenryFnord: checks
Sykedupp: checks
*** RIVER *** [8d 5h 5d 9s] [Qs]
HenryFnord: checks
Sykedupp: bets 300
HenryFnord: raises 300 to 600
Sykedupp: raises 470 to 1070 and is all-in
HenryFnord: calls 470
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Sykedupp: shows [6h 7s] (a straight, Five to Nine)
HenryFnord: shows [8h 8s] (a full house, Eights full of Fives) HenryFnord collected 2540 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2540 | Rake 0
Board [8d 5h 5d 9s Qs]
Seat 1: Sykedupp (button) (small blind) showed [6h 7s] and lost with a straight, Five to Nine Seat 2: HenryFnord (big blind) showed [8h 8s] and won (2540) with a full house, Eights full of Fives

[Sykedupp]

Hand #13: Syke got pwnt.

GG Fnord

-Chris

[Fnord]

Good game. I just caught the right cards at the right time.

I thought my line on the last hand pretty much tabled that I had flopped a boat. I tend to continuation bet a lot when I show aggro pre-flop. I noticed you had geared up and my re-raise to 200 was to send you a clear message to slow down (so we could keep playing flops in small pots.) My plan was to auto-bet any flop probably around 300. However, with a flop like that I figured you needed to catch up. I thought the river might have hit you and put you on Qx, hence the min check/raise on the end. Against bad players I tend to get value bet and not slow play like that. However, I've learned to be more inclined to do stuff like slow play against better opponents.

Any comments on hand #7? I think that was the toughest one to play.

[arkana]

Why not raise the turn on hand #7 to find out where you stand? Giving another free card with a pair of 7s is not that wise I would think.

[raza]

How much money was at stake?

[H Dogg]

Yeah, that what I really wanna know. What buy-in?

[Sykedupp]

$10... i had Q2 on hand 7 btw, i bet thinking you missed the flop (both players only hit the flop 30% of the time or something like that)

-Chris

[michael1123]

Fnord's play on #7 is exactly what I would've done. Pretty standard play for me personally.

Raising doesn't make sense, only a better hand calls, and you have to fold if he comes over the top (no matter if you have the best hand or not). As you see his call on the turn was the last bit of money he had to put in the pot. His call on the turn basically closed the action, so why would you put a raise and risk more chips on a mediocre hand?

If a Q comes on the river, oh well, but you have an excellent chance to get away from your hand if Syked bets the Q river hard.

A lot of heads up SNG play is really about minimizing how much you put in / can lose with your mediocre hands, and maximizing how much you put in / can win with your big hands.

[arkana]

This doesnt quite make sense to me. So you play very passive with your mediocre hands? I would have probably raised the flop and tried to take the pot there, calling down to the river doesnt really make sense to me, since you never know quite where you stand and you are giving your opponent a chance of improving. How much are you willing to call? Lets say Sykedupp bet 150 on the turn, would you have called that? And another 200 on the river?

[michael1123]

Depends on my read. If he was betting more, I'd be more likely to raise if I thought I had the best hand, but there's really no point here.

With big stacks and little blinds, raising big with mediocre hands in small pots is pretty damn silly.

That's not to say I don't bluff, but its an unraised pot preflop, with a small bet on the flop and turn ... I'm not going to lose a good chunk of my stack on this hand.

[arkana]

Hmm very interesting, this is quite an eye opener for me. Im still in the frame of mind of betting when you are ahead. Especially with a weak hand like that. Im not saying raise all in on the flop, just raise enough so that he will fold if he missed. I suppose just calling will make him wary of betting every flop and how he plays the turn might tell you if you are ahead or not. Still I think just calling the flop and the turn is quite risky. Does the skill level of your opponent influence this?

[Element187]

that was entertaining .. hopefully the next game, it lasts a little longer.

[michael1123]

Hmm very interesting, this is quite an eye opener for me. Im still in the frame of mind of betting when you are ahead. Especially with a weak hand like that. Im not saying raise all in on the flop, just raise enough so that he will fold if he missed. I suppose just calling will make him wary of betting every flop and how he plays the turn might tell you if you are ahead or not. Still I think just calling the flop and the turn is quite risky. Does the skill level of your opponent influence this?

Possibly. This is basically how I'd play this hand in a 1k heads up SNG. Although it probably really has more to do with the style of play of the opposing player.

Plays like this work very well against an aggressive player while heads up with deep stacks. Reraising doesn't work as well, because it stops them from putting money in when they're behind (they fold), and if they're very aggressive and sense any weakness, they could just come right over the top of you regardless of their cards.

Also, one big factor in the play in this hand is that Fnord is out of position. If you raise on the flop or turn, what do you do if they call? Check fold the next street? Make a bigger bet? Bet the same and hope they don't pickup on how weak your hand is? You're putting yourself in a much more likely position of losing a lot of chips.

I've only seen one episode of the National Heads up Championship, but in the one I did Hellmuth used this style of play against Esfandiari. Both Cloutier and Ferguson played similar styles too (even while against each other), just limping / checking a lot, seeing flops, being patient, etc. It was only when Ferguson took a big chip lead that he became much more aggressive preflop.

Of course though, a big key to being able to play this style is to be able to read your opponent pretty well, and be able to both make laydowns and make tough calls, based on cards that come and what your opponent does.

[Symbolic]

I've gotta agree w/ Arkana on this one...the fact that you are out of position is the exact reason why you do a raise here. If he calls you know he probably has T/7. If he has a 2 he's going to fold it to a re-raise. Also, once you re-raise...and then check there's a good chance somebody w/ a 7 will check behind you not wanting to get re-raised again.

It's only a small amount of chips to re-raise, but its a bigger swing.

Remember this, in heads up when you lose a single chip...you aren't going down by 1, you are going down by 2. Instead of winning a 100 pot, you lose a 100 pot, making the swing 200.

[Fnord]

In limit this is an easy check/call for the reasons Micheal gave. These weak but probably best hand situations really have me pulling out my hair in no-limit.

Also, if I improve then I am in a position where I can play back for value.

Remember this, in heads up when you lose a single chip...you aren't going down by 1, you are going down by 2. Instead of winning a 100 pot, you lose a 100 pot, making the swing 200.

This is silly.

[michael1123]

I've gotta agree w/ Arkana on this one...the fact that you are out of position is the exact reason why you do a raise here. If he calls you know he probably has T/7. If he has a 2 he's going to fold it to a re-raise.

To make a meaningful raise on the flop, you're going to have to raise to around 200 (3x his flop bet). That's risking 200 of your stack to attempt to win a pot that is 80 chips at that moment. You also don't win anything more if he has the worst hand and folds it here, although that is much better than the alternative of him calling (even with a worse hand), because you're now stuck in a very bad position on future streets.

Also, once you re-raise...and then check there's a good chance somebody w/ a 7 will check behind you not wanting to get re-raised again.

A good player that called your raise on the flop is very likely going to bet the turn when you check to him whether he has a 7, a 2, or A high. It doesn't look like you're trying to check raise him again, it looks exactly like what it is. Your "feeler raise" didn't scare him off, his call scared you, and now you're done with the hand.

Remember this, in heads up when you lose a single chip...you aren't going down by 1, you are going down by 2. Instead of winning a 100 pot, you lose a 100 pot, making the swing 200.

Which is all the more reason not to dump more chips to him.

[arkana]

To make a meaningful raise on the flop, you're going to have to raise to around 200 (3x his flop bet). That's risking 200 of your stack to attempt to win a pot that is 80 chips at that moment. You also don't win anything more if he has the worst hand and folds it here, although that is much better than the alternative of him calling (even with a worse hand), because you're now stuck in a very bad position on future streets.

Yes, but in this case Fnord was willing to call another 80 on the turn and probably another x amount if Sykedupp bet the river.
His flop and turn calls already add up to 140 and he would have probably called 60-100 on the river? So you are risking those 200 chips to find out if you have the best hand and you are giving him free cards to improve his hand.

I can see that playing this passive against an overly aggressive opponent can be a very good tactic, but then you also need to be very good at reading your opponent to know whether you are ahead\behind. I dont think Im there yet...

Thanks for the input Michael, these types of discussions really help me a lot.

[michael1123]

Yes, but in this case Fnord was willing to call another 80 on the turn and probably another x amount if Sykedupp bet the river.
His flop and turn calls already add up to 140 and he would have probably called 60-100 on the river

It depends on the river card and the river action. It comes down to what he'd bet at that point. You'd expect most hands to check when an A lands. If he still bets, it may be worth a call, depending on his style of play. (would he limp with an A preflop? does he bluff often?) Surely he wouldn't bet the river with a bigger 7, and probably not even with a T (especially a weak one). It all depends on what comes, what he bets, whether you think he wants a call or a fold, etc.

you are giving him free cards to improve his hand.

I wouldn't call them free cards, because money is going into the pot. It really doesn't matter who is putting the money in, neither of you are really getting free cards ... so lets say "cheap cards".

Anyway, this argument is completely irrelevent if you don't know whether you have the best hand or not. You could be giving him "cheap cards" to draw out, or you may yourself be taking these "cheap cards" to draw out, under the assumption that your hand is good.


In any case, the main point I'm getting at is these plays are much less costly decisions than raising the flop and then firing a big bet on the turn and then having to fold your hand to a raise. And if you're just going to raise the flop and check fold after that, your only real chance to win the hand is for him to fold to your raise on the flop, and if that's all your after, why even wait for the 2nd pair to raise with? Do it with rags! Do it with a draw! At least then you'd know where you stand on 4th street as well.

[arkana]

I think its slowly sinking in, I havent really thought of it like that.

Do you have any of your HU hand histories? Posting one of those with some comments on key hands would really help me. Or we can have a match (not for 1k though) and Ill post the HH so you can give me advice...

[michael1123]

I don't think it would be smart of me to post heads up hand histories of mine on a public forum and then give advice on how to beat me!

But I'd be willing to play someone on here, sure.

[arkana]

Sure I understand that, if I see you on IRC and you are free maybe we can play.