Live $100 NL at the Commerce tell me how much I suck

[Fnord]

$100 max buy-in NLHE $3/$2 blinds.

Hand 1:

I have about $140 and have been playing very TAggy. Lots of uncalled pre-flop and flop bets. Table coach and his buddy have stopped giving me action. BB in this hand thought about bluff raising me last hand then folded.

MP (table coach) limps, I just call with A T from the CO. Button (pretty bad) calls, blinds come along.

$4 taken out for rake + bbj drop. So $11 in the pot.

K Q T

SB checks, BB bets $30, folded to me. I think about it and fold.

Hand 2

I have $110, UTG has about $50 (I cut off half his stack AK vs AQ) and coach has around $160.

UTG limps, Coach limps, I raise to $15 with TT, blinds fold, UTG calls, Coach raises to $30, I call, UTG calls. 3 to the frop...

J rag rag

Coach bets $30, I push

[DoGGz]

I would have bet all in with le royal draw. 30$ bet smells like 2pair that doesn't want to get cracked. I then leave the table.

[Fnord]

I love online poker, needed to kick some fish around after dropping $300 (minus the $150 I took from the limit fish) in the commerce game (BTW, I went what must have been 10+ hours there of poker and NEVER saw AA/KK/QQ.) Blah

PokerStars Game #2395990899: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2005/08/22 - 07:17:57 (ET)
Table 'Belinda IV' Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: dyetcoke ($9.50 in chips)
Seat 2: donschmitz ($35.55 in chips)
Seat 3: inecita2004 ($32.45 in chips)
Seat 5: smokienuts ($38.30 in chips)
Seat 6: NaDa112 ($25.45 in chips)
Seat 7: HenryFnord ($22.40 in chips)
Seat 8: Larry Tate ($30.90 in chips)
Seat 9: Orioles#8 ($15.65 in chips)
dyetcoke: posts small blind $0.10
donschmitz: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HenryFnord [8d 8c]
inecita2004: calls $0.25
smokienuts: folds
NaDa112: folds
HenryFnord: raises $0.75 to $1
Larry Tate: folds
Orioles#8: folds
dyetcoke: folds
donschmitz: calls $0.75
inecita2004: folds
*** FLOP *** [Kd Ah 5s]
donschmitz: checks
HenryFnord: bets $2
dlcarter joins the table at seat #4
donschmitz: calls $2
*** TURN *** [Kd Ah 5s] [2d]
donschmitz: checks
HenryFnord: checks
*** RIVER *** [Kd Ah 5s 2d] [8h]
donschmitz: bets $1
HenryFnord: raises $3 to $4
donschmitz: calls $3
*** SHOW DOWN ***
HenryFnord: shows [8d 8c] (three of a kind, Eights)
donschmitz: mucks hand
HenryFnord collected $13.65 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $14.35 | Rake $0.70
Board [Kd Ah 5s 2d 8h]
Seat 1: dyetcoke (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: donschmitz (big blind) mucked [3d As]
Seat 3: inecita2004 folded before Flop
Seat 5: smokienuts folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: NaDa112 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: HenryFnord showed [8d 8c] and won ($13.65) with three of a kind, Eights
Seat 8: Larry Tate folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Orioles#8 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

PokerStars Game #2395998464: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2005/08/22 - 07:23:07 (ET)
Table 'Belinda IV' Seat #7 is the button
Seat 2: CEprimebeef ($10 in chips)
Seat 3: inecita2004 ($53.45 in chips)
Seat 4: GoodMoney ($14.75 in chips)
Seat 5: smokienuts ($38.05 in chips)
Seat 6: NaDa112 ($25.45 in chips)
Seat 7: HenryFnord ($28.05 in chips)
Seat 8: Larry Tate ($31.85 in chips)
Seat 9: Orioles#8 ($6.10 in chips)
Larry Tate: posts small blind $0.10
Orioles#8: posts big blind $0.25
CEprimebeef: posts big blind $0.25
NaDa112: posts small & big blinds $0.35
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to HenryFnord [Th 7h]
CEprimebeef: checks
inecita2004: folds
GoodMoney: folds
smokienuts: folds
dyetcoke has returned
NaDa112: checks
HenryFnord: raises $0.75 to $1
Larry Tate: folds
Orioles#8: folds
CEprimebeef: calls $0.75
NaDa112: folds
*** FLOP *** [8d 2h Tc]
CEprimebeef: checks
HenryFnord: bets $2
CEprimebeef: calls $2
*** TURN *** [8d 2h Tc] [8h]
CEprimebeef: bets $7 and is all-in
HenryFnord: calls $7
*** RIVER *** [8d 2h Tc 8h] [6s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
CEprimebeef: shows [As Kc] (a pair of Eights)
HenryFnord: shows [Th 7h] (two pair, Tens and Eights)
HenryFnord collected $19.70 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $20.70 | Rake $1
Board [8d 2h Tc 8h 6s]
Seat 2: CEprimebeef showed [As Kc] and lost with a pair of Eights
Seat 3: inecita2004 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: GoodMoney folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: smokienuts folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: NaDa112 folded before Flop
Seat 7: HenryFnord (button) showed [Th 7h] and won ($19.70) with two pair, Tens and Eights
Seat 8: Larry Tate (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: Orioles#8 (big blind) folded before Flop

[arkana]

Hand 1
I dont mind the fold. You have bottom pair and the nut flush draw + a gutshot. That sounds very seductive but against some possible holdings that op might bet this strongly on such a scary board you aren't a very big favourite or you are behind and I think you can wait for a bigger edge.

Hand 1: 54.8990 % [ 00.54 00.00 ] { AsTh }
Hand 2: 45.1010 % [ 00.45 00.00 ] { KdQc }

Hand 1: 43.3838 % [ 00.43 00.00 ] { AsTh }
Hand 2: 56.6162 % [ 00.56 00.00 ] { KdJs }

Hand 1: 45.8586 % [ 00.46 00.00 ] { AsTh }
Hand 2: 54.1414 % [ 00.54 00.00 ] { Jd9c }

Hand 2

After getting reraised preflop you would need a very good read that your opponent doesn't have an overpair here to justify this push. Why are the blinds so high? $100 NL max buy-in with $3/$2 blinds, thats like 33BBs. With such shallow stacks the stop and go (on a favourable board) is probably the way to go but I don't like the extra opponent. Push preflop after the reraise (depending the range of hands that your opponent will limp reraise you preflop) to isolate or fold and wait for a better spot if you give him credit.

[Fnord]

fold and wait for a better spot if you give him credit.

Wait for a better spot is silly, this is a cash game. I think set value alone dictates a call, but would love someone to show otherwise.

Yes, I think I screwed the pooch with that push. Shallow money, blah blah blah, I suck at live NL poker, blah, blah, blah, the rake in that game is really fucking sick, blah...

[journey075]

$100 max buy-in NLHE $3/$2 blinds.

Hand 1:

I have about $140 and have been playing very TAggy. Lots of uncalled pre-flop and flop bets. Table coach and his buddy have stopped giving me action. BB in this hand thought about bluff raising me last hand then folded.

MP (table coach) limps, I just call with A T from the CO. Button (pretty bad) calls, blinds come along.

$4 taken out for rake + bbj drop. So $11 in the pot.

K Q T

SB checks, BB bets $30, folded to me. I think about it and fold.

Hand 2

I have $110, UTG has about $50 (I cut off half his stack AK vs AQ) and coach has around $160.

UTG limps, Coach limps, I raise to $15 with TT, blinds fold, UTG calls, Coach raises to $30, I call, UTG calls. 3 to the frop...

J rag rag

Coach bets $30, I push

no reason to play ATo. i like hand 2 a lot.

[Fnord]

no reason to play ATo.

Coach is limping lots of craptastic stuff looking to hit flops. Shallow money and I think I have the best hand here. It's just a question of how often I want to run the PFR + flop bet auto-bet line as I have a feeling it's starting to wear out it's welcome and I don't want to play a raised pot pissing match with the exact kind of hand they're putting me on at this point (this is right about the time I catch Aces and get paid...)

...then again ignore my weak/tight rambling because I'm out of my pond...

[Fnord]

One more hand.

Same game, I have about $100.

I have 99 in the SB and complete after 3 limpers.

Flop comes 952 with 2 spades. Pot has about $15 in it. I want to play for stacks and check intending to raise. Checked around.

Turn is a K spade. I bet $15. 2 kinda tight post-flop players call.
River is a blank. I check, next guy bets $20, call, I think for a second and fold.

[arkana]

fold and wait for a better spot if you give him credit.

Wait for a better spot is silly, this is a cash game. I think set value alone dictates a call, but would love someone to show otherwise.

Yes, I think I screwed the pooch with that push. Shallow money, blah blah blah, I suck at live NL poker, blah, blah, blah, the rake in that game is really fucking sick, blah...

Sorry my bad, you can actually play it for the set because of your initial raise (making it only an extra $15 to you). In reality though he has you in a bad spot because he has more than 1/4 of your stack in preflop and you only have 1/8 chance of hitting your set (on the flop). Why did you push the flop? Did you have reason to believe he doesnt have an overpair?

I guess in hindsight limping preflop sounds good because of the shallow stacks...

[arkana]

One more hand.

Same game, I have about $100.

I have 99 in the SB and complete after 3 limpers.

Flop comes 952 with 2 spades. Pot has about $15 in it. I want to play for stacks and check intending to raise. Checked around.

Turn is a K spade. I bet $15. 2 kinda tight post-flop players call.
River is a blank. I check, next guy bets $20, call, I think for a second and fold.

So the pot is about $15 + 3*$15 + 2*$20 = $100 on the river and its a guaranteed showdown for $20? Me thinks easy call.

[Fnord]

Sorry my bad, you can actually play it for the set because of your initial raise (making it only an extra $15 to you).

Then consider my post-flop donk-plied odds from the 3rd guy in the hand with clearly no buisness being there...

So the pot is about $15 + 3*$15 + 2*$20 = $100 on the river and its a guaranteed showdown for $20? Me thinks easy call.

That's 5:1 needing to beat 2 hands. Meh, I'm so used to making this call getting at least 8:1. I was so at a loss how to play this particular environment...

[Bmxicle]

hand !:
I like the fold, if this is normal b & m then "i don't see any reason to get involved" cause you are prolly getting called, I just find that too often your outs are tainted.

Hand 2:
You need a very specific read to even call this limp raise. Even then when i do have that read on someone i will likely be pushing allin preflop on him.

[Fnord]

You need a very specific read to even call this limp raise. Even then when i do have that read on someone i will likely be pushing allin preflop on him.

I think pre-flop poker in this spot sucks. We have position and there are a lot of flops where I can make a routine fold.

[arkana]

So the pot is about $15 + 3*$15 + 2*$20 = $100 on the river and its a guaranteed showdown for $20? Me thinks easy call.

That's 5:1 needing to beat 2 hands. Meh, I'm so used to making this call getting at least 8:1. I was so at a loss how to play this particular environment...

First opponent bet $20 into a $60 pot on the river, thats pretty weak and in my opinion its more likely that he paired his K on the turn and is making a smallish value bet because he is afraid of the flush but doesn't want to give a free showdown either. The second opponent just calling that small bet doesn't convince me of a strong hand either. I am pretty confident your set will be good (way) more than 1/6 of the time. Results?

[SinkRox]

last hand i like the river fold but if you wana build a pot with a set you should lead out hoping to get re-raised.. maybe make a weak 1/3 - 1/2 pot bet at least then your still charging peeps for flush draws if they flat call... if they re-rasie then its payday for you. I dont like c/r a flop with a set, its risky and if its successfull it tips off ur hand.

[Bmxicle]

You need a very specific read to even call this limp raise. Even then when i do have that read on someone i will likely be pushing allin preflop on him.

I think pre-flop poker in this spot sucks. We have position and there are a lot of flops where I can make a routine fold.

From my experience (there are always exceptions) a limp raise means one of two things. From a tight player it is almost always AA or KK. From a fish it is generally a pocket pair 22-AA that they want to gamble with. So if i have that read that he wants to gamble with a lower pocket pair then i would want to get all my money in preflop because as you said there are alot of flops where you can just make a routine fold to his continuation bet.

I just do not see any type of player, except very tricky ones, limp raising Ak, AQ etc. Can you tell me your read on table coach? what kind of a player was he?

[Drewbie]

Tough fold to lay down the set of 9's.
The only things you are afraid of are KK or pocket spades.
Tough call but for 20$, I think I would showdown.
Could it have been a missed draw??

[arkana]

Fnord PM me the results please if you don't want to post them, I am quite keen to find out what happened.

[a500lbgorilla]

the guy could be betting a baby flush, which table coaches like to do. So I don't hate the fold.

Why are stacks so shallow that 1/3rd of everyone's stack is always going in on the flop?

-'rilla

[FishMagician]

On the first hand - don't you have tons of fold equity if you push since you've been so tight? Or is BB not that aware? Or are you certain that the overbet means a made flush because you've seen him do something similar?

Second hand - I think after the limp/raise you have to play set or get.

99 hand - I think you can call with crazy pot odds. I guess it depends on your reads though, so you were probably right.

[Fnord]

Results:

Hand 2
He had AA and insta-called. I was done after that hand. It was a pretty easy read, also with donk in the hand I should have given the Jack more weight as there is a fair chance it hit him and he's certainly not folding.

Hand 3
The other players had K2 and K5 for 2 pair each. Have a lot of mixed feelings about the hand. How do you play a hand like that where you're in a dry pot that got ugly? Yet another spot where in LHE I know I can profitably showdown, but am at a loss in NLHE...

[Fnord]

*bump*

Hand 3
The other players had K2 and K5 for 2 pair each. Have a lot of mixed feelings about the hand. How do you play a hand like that where you're in a dry pot that got ugly? Yet another spot where in LHE I know I can profitably showdown, but am at a loss in NLHE...

[Demiparadigm]

Commerce has some beautiful 9/18 tables....
Don't play in such a horrible NL game/ structure.


Beyond that, I think you are looking to make a hand, push, and pray for a call. You can't outplay donkeys with 30BBs and a sick rake.

[dsaxton]

One more hand.

Same game, I have about $100.

I have 99 in the SB and complete after 3 limpers.

Flop comes 952 with 2 spades. Pot has about $15 in it. I want to play for stacks and check intending to raise. Checked around.

Turn is a K spade. I bet $15. 2 kinda tight post-flop players call.
River is a blank. I check, next guy bets $20, call, I think for a second and fold.

I think checking is probably a mistake. In a multi-way limped pot like this, unless the players are particularly aggressive, they're just going to check behind without a hand, and the fact that you have top set severely limits the chances that your opponents have hands. Did you have reason to suspect that your opponents were likely to bet?

I'd bet and get called or raised by an opponent who would have bet if I had checked, and also to protect the pot against players with draws who would have likely taken a free card had I checked.

[arkana]

*bump*

Hand 3
The other players had K2 and K5 for 2 pair each. Have a lot of mixed feelings about the hand. How do you play a hand like that where you're in a dry pot that got ugly? Yet another spot where in LHE I know I can profitably showdown, but am at a loss in NLHE...

You think the hand through and you realise that you cannot be 80%+ sure (which you would need to be with the pot odds you were getting on the call) that someone has a flush. You didn't bet the flop which if called would have made it more likely that a flush draw was out there, you bet the turn when a third spade (a face card - K) fell and you got two callers which could mean a baby flush slowplaying (very risky), the nut flush slowplaying (possible) or someone pairing their King and it could also be that your opponents picked up the flush draw on the turn. Then you check the river after leading which will be interpreted as weakness and the next opponent makes a bet which looks like a blocking bet and not the nut flush, the second opponent just calls this bet (so he doesnt have a very strong hand either) and you are faced with a call with 5:1 odds. So the only hand you are really afraid of here is a baby flush that took a big risk in not raising the turn. I don't think the pot got that ugly, 5:1 odds on a call is not something you get very often in NL and you should have been grateful to get such a cheap showdown. Compare this hand to the one where you were willing to stick the rest of your chips in (more than pot) with middle pair given a strong chance that table captain had an overpair and it doesn't make sense to me.

I know it sounds harsh but I think you need to hear it. In NL you will often be faced with tough decisions and its up to you to take all the relevant information combined with the pot odds you are getting and try and figure out what decision is the best one. In Hand 2 you chose to ignore the strong information you had and in Hand 3 you chose to ignore the extremely good pot odds you were getting with no real information that you were beat.

NL is a game that puts players under a lot more pressure to make good decisions than limit (im not saying NL is superior, just different), the players who can consistently handle this pressure and still make good decisions are the ones who will go the distance. Make no mistake NL is brutal...