Push AA preflop or raise 4-8BB - which is better at 25NL?

[r8ed]

After reading a couple AA posts I started thinking:
I wonder if pushing AA all-in preflop at 25NL will yield more profit over time than raising $1 - $2. You probably won't get called as often, but when you do you win 80% of the time. Whereas, $1 - $2 still gets no callers sometimes. When they do call, you are giving them an opportunity to take a shot at hitting a flop and you probably aren't folding anyway. Any two suited may call and could beat you. I would do the same for KK too maybe.

What do you think?

[Laeelin]

I'd say push!

at $25 NL, you are at least fairly likely to get callers... at $50NL, pushing sometimes works, and 100NL it's just stupid =)

[Zangief]

I've been playing NL$25 lately.

I like to raise AA/KK my normal preflop raise if I am the first to raise the pot. (If there are 2+ limpers in front, I raise more than if there are fewer.) If there is already a raise in front, I will push. If there are a lot of limpers (like 4-5+) and I'm in one of blinds, sometimes I push.

This seems to be working well:

FullTiltPoker Game #218437167: Table Double Arch - $0.10/$0.25 - No Limit Hold'em - 19:26:45 ET - 2005/09/14
Seat 1: AmanoAi ($24.75)
Seat 2: Bad Beats 4 U ($41.15)
Seat 3: Zangief ($41.20)
Seat 4: Boiler131 ($11.70)
Seat 5: TripSearchin ($24.15)
Seat 6: Hendawg2 ($5.70)
Seat 7: Harkilicious ($19.70)
Seat 8: bfdrake ($3.70)
Seat 9: Spock Jenkins ($47.55)
Hendawg2 is sitting out
Harkilicious posts the big blind of $0.25
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Zangief [As Ac]
Hendawg2 stands up
bfdrake raises to $3.70, and is all in
Spock Jenkins raises to $7.15
AmanoAi folds
Bad Beats 4 U folds
Zangief raises to $41.20, and is all in
Boiler131 folds
TripSearchin folds
Harkilicious folds
Spock Jenkins calls $34.05
Zangief shows [As Ac]
bfdrake shows [3s 3c]
Spock Jenkins shows [Jd Ad]
*** FLOP *** [Td 5s 2s]
*** TURN *** [Td 5s 2s] [9h]
*** RIVER *** [Td 5s 2s 9h] [Kh]
Zangief shows a pair of Aces
Spock Jenkins shows Ace King high
Zangief wins the side pot ($72.55) with a pair of Aces
bfdrake shows a pair of Threes
Zangief wins the main pot ($10.80) with a pair of Aces
bfdrake is sitting out
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $86.35 Main pot $11.35. Side pot $75. | Rake $3
Board: [Td 5s 2s 9h Kh]
Seat 1: AmanoAi didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: Bad Beats 4 U didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: Zangief showed [As Ac] and won ($83.35) with a pair of Aces
Seat 4: Boiler131 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: TripSearchin (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: Hendawg2 (small blind) is sitting out
Seat 7: Harkilicious (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 8: bfdrake showed [3s 3c] and lost with a pair of Threes
Seat 9: Spock Jenkins showed [Jd Ad] and lost with Ace King high

[r8ed]

Well, that push is a no-brainer. I'm talking about all cases - with our without limpers or raisers.

Laeelin, what do you think about KK?

I don't think I would do this with QQ. In fact, I like doing the opposite with QQ. Limp them and hope to hit a nice flop. I think I will vary raising normal and limping - like I tend to do with AK.

[Laeelin]

KK, probally not good to push with, but might be worth it....

I didnt push with KK at that level

QQ, no way would I push with, your a coinflip against your best caller (AK)

[PokerPatNEU]

Heh at 25NL i think there are worse callers to a pre flop push with QQ then AK. I bet the worst thing you'll see call is probably something like 56 suited...44...A5 suited...JT offsuit.....

I think just pushing every tiem you're dealt AA in 25NL is profitable, but not the MOST profitable.

[Zangief]

I think just pushing every tiem you're dealt AA in 25NL is profitable, but not the MOST profitable.

Yeah, I think this is right. Despite how crazy these stakes can be, you are going to get a lot of folds if you just push every time you get AA.

[Laeelin]

I think just pushing every tiem you're dealt AA in 25NL is profitable, but not the MOST profitable.

Yeah, I think this is right. Despite how crazy these stakes can be, you are going to get a lot of folds if you just push every time you get AA.

Depends on how many tables you are playing at!

[r8ed]

The problem with KK is if you bet 4-8BB, Axs and even Axo will call often. An Ace hits on the flop and you are scared shitless. Then you/they end up pushing anyway and you lose. If an Ace does not come you still have to deal with lower pocket pairs hitting trips and suited combos and straights that are willing to call 4-8BB.

If you push preflop, Ax - where x is less than 10 will most likely fold. Axo - where x is higher than 10 will probably fold. Axs - where x is higher than 10 may call. You are most likely called by AA,AK,QQ,JJ,TT,99. Only one has the odds against you and you dominate. You will sometimes be called by 88-22 and some maniacs with horrible hands.

[Zangief]

The problem with KK is if you bet 4-8BB, Axs and even Axo will call often. An Ace hits on the flop and you are scared shitless. Then you/they end up pushing anyway and you lose. If an Ace does not come you still have to deal with lower pocket pairs hitting trips and suited combos and straights that are willing to call 4-8BB.

If you push preflop, Ax - where x is less than 10 will most likely fold. Axo - where x is higher than 10 will probably fold. Axs - where x is higher than 10 may call. You are most likely called by AA,AK,QQ,JJ,TT,99. Only one has the odds against you and you dominate. You will sometimes be called by 88-22 and some maniacs with horrible hands.

If I am the first raiser, I play KK and AK essentially the same preflop and on the flop. I raise the same amount before the flop and bet the same amount on the flop. This makes it difficult for someone with Ax or a lower overpair to know what I have. If the Ax-man always puts his money in when the flop comes Ayz, I'll fold when I have KK, but take his stack when I have AK. What's wrong with that?

I guess I just feel that learning to play better postflop will be more useful and profitable in the long run than deciding to just push with AA/KK all the time.

[Laeelin]

An Ace hits on the flop and you are scared shitless. Then you/they end up pushing anyway and you lose.

Ummmm,

No, i'm not pushing/calling a push with KK on a Axx flop, thanks anyway.

Bet a nice AK type bet and let it go at that.

it's nice when you can take the stack of AT on a Txx flop though =)

[r8ed]

Nothing wrong with the way you do it. I'm just asking if this is just plain dumb. It will elimnate post-flop mistakes. If I have KK and the flop has one or two aces, that's a decision. If they push, do I fold every time? Even if it's a lagg that seems to overbet often, they are allowed to get an Ace. It will reduce the garbage hands from calling and hitting a boat or a flush or a straight or even two pair.

Most of the time I see a 4-8xBB bet, I'm almost positive somebody has a pocket pair or AK or AQ or possibly AJ or KQ. If 2 or more call, it could be very profitable if I play Axs or Suited Connectors. I probably won't hit, but IF I hit, I'm taking at least one stack. I would not be in the equation if somebody pushed preflop.

I'm going to try it out and see what happens. I'll have my butler type the post for me as I will be too busy eating caviar and hanging with <insert pop icon of the day name here>.

[Zangief]

I'm going to try it out and see what happens. I'll have my butler type the post for me as I will be too busy eating caviar and hanging with Michael Jackson.

Hmmm ...

Please report back if you find it really works out for you. Then I might have to try it.

[Laeelin]

If I have KK and the flop has one or two aces, that's a decision. If they push, do I fold every time?

Yes.

Every time.

Unless you have a SUPER strong read (and i've never had one that strong)

If they are so sure they have the best hand after my PFR and a Axx flop, I believe them.

ps: thats also why my PFR/Continuation bets/Value bets are almost always the exact same size so that they dont know from my pattern if I have KK or AK or AA or TT or 76s