Bush hates blacks and loves osama bin laden

[SmackinYaUp]

And Europe believes in animal sex






Basically, what I'm saying is get off these stupid conspiracies!

[a500lbgorilla]

Images no worky.

Theories are sound, though.

-'rilla

[Irisheyes]

Thats why Irish farmers wear wellies...

They stick the sheeps legs in them so they can't run away!

[SmackinYaUp]

Bastards! The images were the best part! This is bullshit!

[a500lbgorilla]

Bastards! The images were the best part! This is bullshit!

Clearly SOMEONE is trying to supress your opinion.

DAMN YOU BIG BROTHA

-'rilla

[SmackinYaUp]

They cant stop an underground l337 h4x0r L1K3 m34!

[Humphrind]

I don't understand how Bush hates blacks.

And Europe has a 3 dollar bill? That's pretty... queer.

[Lukie]

I don't understand how Bush hates blacks.

And Europe has a 3 dollar bill? That's pretty... queer.

Did anybody else laugh when they read this?

[gabe]

i laughed at the 2nd line. but i'm guessing thats not what you laughed at?

[stevedonel]

I don't understand how Bush hates blacks.

And Europe has a 3 dollar bill? That's pretty... queer.

The "Bush hates black people" thing probably came from this

The text pretty much says it all; but if you feel the need to laugh at pure stupidity, the video is at the bottom of the segment. I still have no coherant response to West's statements.

[Greedo017]

If ya need he`p making uh response fo' kanye try dis here otay buh-weet

http://www.joel.net/EBONICS/translator.asp

[Miffed22001]

Its allllll lies
Poles might bum dogs, and maybe the Swedes too
We bRits dont
:P

[Irisheyes]

Its allllll lies
Poles might bum dogs, and maybe the Swedes too
We bRits dont
:P

They don't need to, they have each other.

[Miffed22001]

Its allllll lies
Poles might bum dogs, and maybe the Swedes too
We bRits dont
:P

They don't need to, they have each other.

i smell another anglo-irish slanging match

[Irisheyes]

Its allllll lies
Poles might bum dogs, and maybe the Swedes too
We bRits dont
:P

They don't need to, they have each other.

i smell another anglo-irish slanging match

We should make it a weekly event.

[BrokeSucca]

Its allllll lies
Poles might bum dogs, and maybe the Swedes too
We bRits dont
:P

They don't need to, they have each other.

And all those sheep they stole from the Scotts.

[daluchy]

I think Kanye missed the point, but was within the area.

Bush doesn't care about poor, black people...as he doesn't care much about all poor people.

[Cocco_Bill]

I think Kanye missed the point, but was within the area.

Bush doesn't care about poor, black people...as he doesn't care much about all poor people.

Neither does Mrs Bush, this is what she had to say:

"Everyone is so overwhelmed by the hospitality. And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this, this is working very well for them," Mrs. Bush told American Public Media's "Marketplace" program, before returning to her multi-million dollar Houston home.

[Cocco_Bill]

Funny & sad

http://www.yourdailymedia.com/media/1126176324

[CCIE SOON]

I think Kanye missed the point, but was within the area.

Bush doesn't care about poor, black people...as he doesn't care much about all poor people.

So if you are saying that he doesnt care about poor people, then leave race out of it. Seems like a pretty crappy time to be throwing in the race card.

Neither does Mrs Bush, this is what she had to say:

"Everyone is so overwhelmed by the hospitality. And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this, this is working very well for them," Mrs. Bush told American Public Media's "Marketplace" program, before returning to her multi-million dollar Houston home.

1) Does it matter how much her home is? KanYe West made an equally stupid blanket statement, and I didnt see mention of the price of his home, but I bet my meager salary its over a million. I also find it funny that in KanYe Wests rant he said he is so distraught that he called his business manager to find out "the biggest amount" he could give. Last time I checked, the Red Cross doesnt put a cap on how much they will receive from someone. So why say "the biggest amount I can give", why not say "the biggest amount Im comfortable with, without sacraficing my home or cars or lifestyle". So the media finds it of importance to focus on the price of her home in contrast to her stupid comment. Yet they fail to mention the price of KanYe's home or the fact that he is giving whats "comfortable" to him in relation to his stupid comment.

2) That was George W's mom, not his wife - still a bush, yes, but it should be marked that those comments arent coming from the current 1st lady.

3) It was a very bad comment, but disect it. It is pure fact that when she says "so many of the people in the arena were underpvileged" -- she is right. Try to find someone to dispute that. When she said its working out well for them, that is a harsh comment but not 100% false. Where I live, we just got about 1000 evacuees who are being given permanent residence, free housing, they are receiving all their meals for free, free clothes, debit cards (which by the way if you have been watching the news, are being used to purchase things like designer handbags and flat screen tv's), being given welfare (about 20% of new orleans proper was already on welfare btw - and the percentage of those at the superdome on welfare was far higher as the majority of that 20% in New Orleans ended up at the Superdome), and now they are talking about the government negotiating payoffs for these peoples' debtors. So lets see, i work, i pay rent, i pay for my food, i dont receive free money. And a number of people that she is referring to didnt work, owed money, didnt own, etc. They went through something horrible, I dont dispute that nor am I without care or feeling. The image on TV are horrible and I feel bad for everyone of those people, regardless of race or income bracket (except the people shooting at cops, committing rapes, etc. - they can burn in hell). But the point at hand is her comments and despite being bad, they are not completely untrue. While it was stupid to say, there was and is some truth to it. Is it 100% factual? No, of course not. Was it right on for a small to medium percentage of the populus - yes.

[chardrian]

So if you are saying that he doesnt care about poor people, then leave race out of it. Seems like a pretty crappy time to be throwing in the race card.

I have never understood why people think that race should not be brought up. Of course the "race card" is going to be thrown in here - the vast majority of those who could not get out of New Orleans were black. The vast majority of those who could not get out of New Orleans were poor. This simply reinforces the data that if you are black you are more likely to be poor and "disadvantaged" - in this case we have all seen what the "disadvantage" led to. We Americans are told that we live in the "best country" in the world. I don't necessarily disagree with that statement. But that doesn't mean that we as Americans are actually all treated equally. Just like any country, we have problems that we need to continually work on and reassess.

As far as media bias goes - remember this goes both ways. The "liberal" media may be lambasting mama Bush - but also realize that blacks taking food from grocery stores were labeled "looters", whites on the other hand simply "found" food from the grocery store.

[RHCNNN]

Christ...
"This simply reinforces the data that if you are black you are more likely to be poor and "disadvantaged"
^^^This may be true, but noone stops the poor and disadvantaged from going to school and moving up the ladder. Here's another blanket statement that is largely true: Asians are more likely to be affluent, literate, and educated. Does George Bush love Asians? OR is it something in their culture that encourages education and career prosperity?


Stop blaming "the man" for the lack of initiative, ambition, and general success for some. Go listen to some Larry Elder... please

[chardrian]

I never blamed the "man" for anything. I am not even going to cry and say something like "those poor welfare moms have never had a chance." But I'm also not going to turn a blind eye when an obvious problem/disparity is staring me right in the face. I think something is stopping the poor and disadvantaged from going to school and moving up the ladder. Clearly some of it has to be that the poor and disadvantaged are not getting the same quality education as their privileged white and Asian cousins are. But I also know that there is much more involved to it than that.

I'm not trying to blame anybody for anything. I was just pointing out that there we as Americans have problems we need to face. Dumping a whole bunch of money into the Red Cross is not going to solve those problems. I gotta go listen to some Larry Elder now.

[SmackinYaUp]

As far as media bias goes - remember this goes both ways. The "liberal" media may be lambasting mama Bush - but also realize that blacks taking food from grocery stores were labeled "looters", whites on the other hand simply "found" food from the grocery store.

I never saw any examples of this anywhere on the news. I saw people who were stealing TV's labled looters and people who stole food labled as desperate.

It was really strange, but on one of the days when there were crowds of people walking in to the superdome, there was a reporter standing in front of hundreds of poor black people and out of nowhere he says something like "we have all kinds of different races, ethnic backgrounds, and social classes represented here today." Obviously it was over 90% black so what was the point of that statement? To be politically correct? I have no idea what it means.

But I am sick of the race card being brought into every major event. There is no underlying racism against minorities. In fact, it seems more like politicians are pandering to the blacks more than any other race, including whites. I could go on and on about affirmative action, college requirements, and other politcal vote-grabber policies.

[Greedo017]

ok, yes some black people were called looters while some white people were not. Did this happen in the same newspaper? In the same article? by the same author? Maybe one newspaper called all looters looters, while another said everyone was searching for food. although it seems to be an overall racist based thing, you don't really know for sure, do you?

"But that doesn't mean that we as Americans are actually all treated equally."

no, of course we are not all treated equally. its ten times harder for me to get into college than for a hispanic person, to name one thing. what does this have to do with hurricane katrina?

[DaNutsInYoEye]

Ahh, good ol' America. Instead of unifying after a disaster, we instead use the situation as a way to promote our political, social and personal agendas...

Robert F Kennedy Jr: “Now we are all learning what it’s like to reap the whirlwind of fossil fuel dependence which Barbour and his cronies have encouraged. Our destructive addiction has given us a catastrophic war in the Middle East and--now--Katrina is giving our nation a glimpse of the climate chaos we are bequeathing our children.”

Cynthia McKinney (D-GA): [re: New Orleans] “As I saw the mostly African American families ripped apart, I could only think of slavery. Families ripped apart, herded into what looked like concentration camps.”

Randall Robertson: “It is reported that black hurricane victims in New Orleans have begun eating corpses to survive. Four days after the storm, thousands of blacks in New Orleans are dying like dogs. No-one has come to help them.”

These statements are simply absurd. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but so many people are quick to criticize others, yet they don't actually do a damn thing to help.

The devestation caused by the hurricane was massive. I defy anyone to find a single person, government, or other agency anywhere in the world that would have been prepared to handle such a crises and do it without a single problem. The response after the hurricane was less than adequate in some areas. Bush openly admits to this, although many of the problems are attributable to local/state governments, etc. Can we move past that though and rebuild these areas? I have a hard time believing that any inadequacies were becase President Bush or anyone else wanted to prolong suffering or simply didn't care. This is what so many people are suggesting though.

The fact is that there are always going to be dissenters regardless of the situation. If the federal goverment's response was lightning quick and not a single life was lost there would be people saying that Bush's efficient actions were merely a way to deter our attention from Iraq... These people do absolutely nothing to help the situation they claim to be concerned about. They only stir up animosity and shift focus towards their own agendas and away from the issues that really need to be addressed: the people are areas affected by hurricane Katrina. This entire mess would likely be cleaned up a lot sooner if people focused their energy on working togther instead of attacking each other.

[SmackinYaUp]

Ahh, good ol' America. Instead of unifying after a disaster, we instead use the situation as a way to promote our political, social and personal agendas...

Robert F Kennedy Jr: “Now we are all learning what it’s like to reap the whirlwind of fossil fuel dependence which Barbour and his cronies have encouraged. Our destructive addiction has given us a catastrophic war in the Middle East and--now--Katrina is giving our nation a glimpse of the climate chaos we are bequeathing our children.”

Cynthia McKinney (D-GA): [re: New Orleans] “As I saw the mostly African American families ripped apart, I could only think of slavery. Families ripped apart, herded into what looked like concentration camps.”

Randall Robertson: “It is reported that black hurricane victims in New Orleans have begun eating corpses to survive. Four days after the storm, thousands of blacks in New Orleans are dying like dogs. No-one has come to help them.”

These statements are simply absurd. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but so many people are quick to criticize others, yet they don't actually do a damn thing to help.

The devestation caused by the hurricane was massive. I defy anyone to find a single person, government, or other agency anywhere in the world that would have been prepared to handle such a crises and do it without a single problem. The response after the hurricane was less than adequate in some areas. Bush openly admits to this, although many of the problems are attributable to local/state governments, etc. Can we move past that though and rebuild these areas? I have a hard time believing that any inadequacies were becase President Bush or anyone else wanted to prolong suffering or simply didn't care. This is what so many people are suggesting though.

The fact is that there are always going to be dissenters regardless of the situation. If the federal goverment's response was lightning quick and not a single life was lost there would be people saying that Bush's efficient actions were merely a way to deter our attention from Iraq... These people do absolutely nothing to help the situation they claim to be concerned about. They only stir up animosity and shift focus towards their own agendas and away from the issues that really need to be addressed: the people are areas affected by hurricane Katrina. This entire mess would likely be cleaned up a lot sooner if people focused their energy on working togther instead of attacking each other.

I concur!

[koolmoe]

Christ...
"This simply reinforces the data that if you are black you are more likely to be poor and "disadvantaged"
^^^This may be true, but noone stops the poor and disadvantaged from going to school and moving up the ladder.
...
Stop blaming "the man" for the lack of initiative, ambition, and general success for some. Go listen to some Larry Elder... please

While in general your statement is true, you would have to understand the public vs. parochial school situation in SE Louisiana to know that it is not a level playing field for poor folks in this area.

[SmackinYaUp]

I think that almost all of it has to do with parenting, and a very small part of it has to do with location.

If you're raised by poor parents in a poor neighborhood who have no motivation to change their station in life, most likely you will emulate what you see and follow in their footsteps. Not always, but usually. Basically, if you get started with bad parents, you're fucked. Not always, but usually.

I can imagine being born and stuck in a shitty city that has few job opporunities, but even then, I can't imagine staying there for my entire life.

Where I live in Wichita, Kansas, the cost of living is significantly cheaper than many parts of the country, but the following applies to some degree to most places out there. I go to school full time and work part time at a fast food place. I live on my own, but I don't live in the ghetto. I share an apartment with a roomate on the nicer side of town, pay $225 a month in rent and another $50 max on electricity, $50 on internet, and the rest on food. My apartment isn't the nicest place around by far, but its a fairly respectable place all things considered. This is cheap! Why do people still choose to live in the rat hole project-apartments down the road? I have no idea, but its not that hard to get a halfway decent place to stay and live like a human being.


Oh and there is something flawed with the system where my girlfriend who used to work at a Dillon's grocery store would accept payments from customers in the form of vision cards (food stamps) who then turned around and bought candy, cigs, and pop on credit cards and then help them load their groceries into an escalade. Yea that is no shit and it happens all the time.

I'm having a hard time feeling sorry for the poor of this country, so I'm sure I'm missing something and I am more than willing to accept other viewpoints and change my beliefs based upon those facts.

[chardrian]

As far as media bias goes - remember this goes both ways. The "liberal" media may be lambasting mama Bush - but also realize that blacks taking food from grocery stores were labeled "looters", whites on the other hand simply "found" food from the grocery store.

I never saw any examples of this anywhere on the news. I saw people who were stealing TV's labled looters and people who stole food labled as desperate.

http://www.snopes.com/photos/katrina/looters.asp

Before the debate begins - I understand that there were reasons for the caption differences besides just "racism."

[SmackinYaUp]

http://www.nnvl.noaa.gov/hurseas2005...0829-1kg12.jpg

[chardrian]

Told ya race was involved - look how white that damn huricane was.

[koolmoe]

If you're raised by poor parents in a poor neighborhood who have no motivation to change their station in life, most likely you will emulate what you see and follow in their footsteps. Not always, but usually. Basically, if you get started with bad parents, you're fucked. Not always, but usually.

I have only my personal experience to go on. I was raised by a single mother who was and is below the poverty line. She will not accept help from me or my brothers, despite the fact that we have plenty for our families and extra for her. She prefers a disability check and other government assistance to what she considers a handout from her sons.

I think for a lot of people, government assistance gives them a feeling of independence that assistance from an actual person (church worker, family member, etc.) does not. Unfortunately, it engenders a sense of entitlement over time.

My mother loved us, but was never involved with our schoolwork, college choices, or career path. My brothers and I were left to figure it out on our own.

I can imagine being born and stuck in a shitty city that has few job opporunities, but even then, I can't imagine staying there for my entire life.

People are afraid to take risks when it comes to money. A big reason that the poor didn't evacuate was that they couldn't afford hotel rooms and food if they left. The inertia of fear keeps people from making a change.

Where I live in Wichita, Kansas, the cost of living is significantly cheaper than many parts of the country, but the following applies to some degree to most places out there. I go to school full time and work part time at a fast food place. I live on my own, but I don't live in the ghetto. I share an apartment with a roomate on the nicer side of town, pay $225 a month in rent and another $50 max on electricity, $50 on internet, and the rest on food. My apartment isn't the nicest place around by far, but its a fairly respectable place all things considered. This is cheap! Why do people still choose to live in the rat hole project-apartments down the road? I have no idea, but its not that hard to get a halfway decent place to stay and live like a human being.

New Orleans is a very expensive place to live. Folks in the projects have no car, and probably a low wage job, if they even have a job. People can get out of NO if they choose to leave, but they won't be finding a $500 place to live in the city. Property close enough for public transportation goes for around $250 per square foot, so it would be rare to find an affordable place to rent. Other cities (NY, SF) are far worse in this regard.

Oh and there is something flawed with the system where my girlfriend who used to work at a Dillon's grocery store would accept payments from customers in the form of vision cards (food stamps) who then turned around and bought candy, cigs, and pop on credit cards and then help them load their groceries into an escalade. Yea that is no shit and it happens all the time.

It's relatively easy to take on debt, even for poor people. Another thing that is very important to understand is that some poor folks desparately want to be like everyone else, so when they get a little bit of money, they usually spend it like discretionary income, even if they can't afford to. I know this firsthand; when I got a job in tenth grade, I paid for my lunch every day, refusing to eat free lunch at school even though my family qualified for it.

I'm having a hard time feeling sorry for the poor of this country, so I'm sure I'm missing something and I am more than willing to accept other viewpoints and change my beliefs based upon those facts.

Honestly, I doubt the poor want you to feel sorry for them. But if you want to make sense of what you see, you have to understand the forces at work in their lives. I picked myself up by my bootstraps, got an education, a livelihood, and created wealth and security for myself and my wife. However, I was fortunate to be naturally gifted. It is not easy for the average person. Above average intelligence goes a long way.

My point about the schools in SE LA: when Louisiana schools were desegregated, affluent whites flooded the parochial schools, where high tuitions created a de facto barrier between their children and undesirables. Parochial schools tend to have much better resources and fewer discipline problems. Simply put, it is an easier environment in which to learn.

[chardrian]

Very good post koolmoe. It is very hard for those who have lived privileged lives to be truly empathetic. I am not convinced that race played a factor in our response to the hurricane. I am convinced that the hurricane has once again shown us that there are deep-seated, entrenched problems in our country that deal with overlapping and intermingling contexts of race, education, and wealth. Maybe affirmative action, welfare, education reform, etc. is not the answer. But then again, a smug "if I can work, why can't you" response does not seem to be doing much either.

[DaNutsInYoEye]

You cannot correct or remedy certain people's inherent laziness, ignorance, and/or poor decision making. It doesn't matter what kind of financial, educational, or other type of assistance you give them. I understand people fall on hard times, but I have difficulty comprehending how so many people can have fallen on hard times for 5 years, 10 years, their enitre lives, for even generations. There are a host of assistance programs for people such as this. These programs provide people with opportunities to better themselves and their situation. If they choose not to save money, or otherwise not take advantage of programs, then it is their own damn fault.

You're right chardrian that a "if I can can work, you can too" attitude is smug. The street runs both ways though. It is hard to be sympathetic of people that are given opportunities, but habitually waste them. They are already given much sympathy in the form of assistance programs. Instead of using them as a way to step-up, many are content to stay in their current place. These type of people deserve no sympathy and often skew the perception of people that are truly disadvantaged.

It boggles my mind how many people I see in the hospital on a daily basis that are on Medicaid, yet are covered in jewelry, wearing expensive clothes, riding in tricked-out cars, talking on cell phones, etc. You ask these very same people what type of formula they are feeding their babies and it's more often than not the most dirt-cheap, lowest quality formula a company can legally produce. It makes absolutely no sense.

[chardrian]

This entire mess would likely be cleaned up a lot sooner if people focused their energy on working togther instead of attacking each other.

While we might agree to disagree on many topics. I am in 100% agreement with this statement.

[Laeelin]

I'm not rich.

I have never been rich.

We went bankrupt when my wife got sick had to quit her job.

I lost my job because I had to miss too much work to taking care of her.

We owe ~30k medical bills WITH insurance.

We were off welfare in months, and are working on slowly paying off our bills. We have savings again.

Dont you dare tell me that I'm back on my feet because I'm lucky. I worked my a$$ off to get here. It's not luck any more than it's luck that enables Phil Ivey to win money playing poker. It doesnt even require some special skill.

I didn’t get a decent job because I have any skills that everyone else is not able to get, I got a decent job because I didn’t stop learning and looking for a job when I went back to work at minimum wage. That’s the number one reason people stay poor. If they even get a job, they stay at the minimum wage level and hope to become a Mc'D manager one day and retire on that salary.

1) Get a Job to get at least some income.
2 a) Study while not at work (library does wonders for free studying)
2 b) look for another job. I don’t care if you can’t count past 10. Companies WILL pay a lot more than minimum wage for someone that works hard and shows up on time.
3) Save money. Don’t get a new car, if you have a new car, sell it. Drive a $50/month junk heap. Don’t have cable TV, don’t have high speed internet. Don’t have a new computer, don’t eat out, even at Mc'D. Live on noodles, rice, and mac-n-cheese. (You can easily eat on $5 a day if you’re willing to make the needed sacrifices)
4) Go back to school or get certificates.
5) Get a good job.
6) Save up several months of salary
7) THEN get your toys, your new car, ect.


I get really upset when I hear a person talking about the “poor underprivileged” like it’s this horrible thing that the rich are doing to the poor. That attitude does more to make people poor that all the "greedy corporations" and “upper class” combined.

This is America; we hand out student grants like candy. We have job opportunities like crazy. We have a welfare system that will keep you head above the water until you can stand on your own two feet again. I should know. It was there when I really needed it. It will be there if you ever really need it.

You want to see the poor underprivileged? Leave America and look in Africa, the Middle East, and many other countries around the world.

If you see someone that’s poor, it isn’t their fault.
If you see that person again 10 years later and they are still poor, 95% (or more) of the time it IS their fault.

Want a true story?

My Uncle owns an earthmoving company. One day he saw someone with a “will work for food” sign at an interstate exit, and wanted to help. He stopped and walked up to the guy and said “I need someone to watch a worksite for us. I’ll pay you $20 an hour and train you in a job so you can stay with us when we finish this job. If you need a place to stay before you get your first paycheck, you can stay at the hotel we are staying in.”

The guy said: “No thanks; I make more than that standing here”

A huge majority of the time, people that STAY poor, have made the decision to be poor. Anyone can be poor, but, in America, only those unwilling to put in the effort stay poor.

Note: There are a FEW exceptions... Very Very Few.

Note: I’m not saying that everyone can become rich; I’m saying that those willing to work can at least reach middle class.

[koolmoe]

3) Save money. Don’t get a new car, if you have a new car, sell it. Drive a $50/month junk heap. Don’t have cable TV, don’t have high speed internet. Don’t have a new computer, don’t eat out, even at Mc'D. Live on noodles, rice, and mac-n-cheese. (You can easily eat on $5 a day if you’re willing to make the needed sacrifices)

The inability to do this (related thought: lack of vision) is the number one reason that people stay poor, IMO.

[chardrian]

Laeelin - another very good post.
I too am not rich nor have I ever been rich. I would never, ever, say that anyone who has been able to pull themselves out of poverty/assistance programs did so through luck. Every person I know that has done so has done it through hard work and perserverance. There is little to no question in my mind that through hard work, actual budgeting (which I believe needs to be taught from kindergarten through highschool), and perhaps family planning and/or drug and alcohol abstinence, anyone can work themselves out of poverty.

I was born in Africa, visited and studied a year abroad in Africa, was a Peace Corps volunteer in Guatemala, and have seen, lived with, and worked with the truly underprivileged....

However, even with this foundation, I have not yet (and I truly hope I never will be) transformed into a person who believes that just because something can be done (in this case work yourself out of poverty) means that when it is not done, that person is bad, has no value, and deserves no respect or sympathy.

As an example - one of our FTR members had a horrific accident. No one could disagree that there was no one to blame but himself for what occurred - he wasn't forced to go skydiving, he could have bought health insurance beforehand, etc. But that hasn't stopped people from donating to him - nor should it.

I commend you and all of those who have worked their way out of poverty. At the same time I remain sympathetic for those who do not have your fortitude and will continue to seek avenues (through debate, work, and volunteering) in which we can increase the numbers who are able to achieve some level of financial independence.

[Laeelin]

I don’t have any problem with helping someone stand back up when they fall down.

I just have a problem with carrying them just because they don’t want to bother walking.

Should we help people that fall? YES!! I don’t know where I would be without that help.

Should we just keep helping them if they are not willing to do their part? NO!! We do more harm than help when we continue carrying someone after they can stand on their own. They lose the ability to walk as their legs get weaker and weaker until they lack even the ability to stand up without help.

If you don’t think that’s an accurate statement then look closer at the "welfare class" we now have.

Not stopping your help is a bigger crime than not helping in the first place.

If you don’t help when someone falls, you condemn the person that fell.

If you don’t stop helping, you condemn not only the person that fell, but, most likely, their family for generations, and you are leaving the ones trying to help with an extra burden for generations.

I am NOT saying don’t help.

I am saying that helping someone that had the ability to take care of themselves is like taking care of all the needs of a sick person (food/drink/spongebaths/portapotties/ect) and then continuing to take care of all those needs as the person is getting well. Sure, some people will continue to accept that help because the help because they lack the "will" to do otherwise, but by continuing to do that you are harming them, and you are condemning them to that life.

It doesn’t take super willpower to stand on your own feet, it just takes the ability to actually show up at work on time, and actually do what your paid to do while your there.

People are lazy by nature. That’s why any true socialist societies will always fail.

At the base of our nature is still the simple rule: We run the maze to the get pellet.

We don’t do it because we want to run the maze; we do it for the reward. Remove the maze and just give the reward and you just get a fat lazy rat.

[DoGGz]

I'm not rich.

I have never been rich.

We went bankrupt when my wife got sick had to quit her job.

I lost my job because I had to miss too much work to taking care of her.

We owe ~30k medical bills WITH insurance.

We were off welfare in months, and are working on slowly paying off our bills. We have savings again.

Dont you dare tell me that I'm back on my feet because I'm lucky. I worked my a$$ off to get here. It's not luck any more than it's luck that enables Phil Ivey to win money playing poker. It doesnt even require some special skill.

I didn’t get a decent job because I have any skills that everyone else is not able to get, I got a decent job because I didn’t stop learning and looking for a job when I went back to work at minimum wage. That’s the number one reason people stay poor. If they even get a job, they stay at the minimum wage level and hope to become a Mc'D manager one day and retire on that salary.

1) Get a Job to get at least some income.
2 a) Study while not at work (library does wonders for free studying)
2 b) look for another job. I don’t care if you can’t count past 10. Companies WILL pay a lot more than minimum wage for someone that works hard and shows up on time.
3) Save money. Don’t get a new car, if you have a new car, sell it. Drive a $50/month junk heap. Don’t have cable TV, don’t have high speed internet. Don’t have a new computer, don’t eat out, even at Mc'D. Live on noodles, rice, and mac-n-cheese. (You can easily eat on $5 a day if you’re willing to make the needed sacrifices)
4) Go back to school or get certificates.
5) Get a good job.
6) Save up several months of salary
7) THEN get your toys, your new car, ect.


I get really upset when I hear a person talking about the “poor underprivileged” like it’s this horrible thing that the rich are doing to the poor. That attitude does more to make people poor that all the "greedy corporations" and “upper class” combined.

This is America; we hand out student grants like candy. We have job opportunities like crazy. We have a welfare system that will keep you head above the water until you can stand on your own two feet again. I should know. It was there when I really needed it. It will be there if you ever really need it.

You want to see the poor underprivileged? Leave America and look in Africa, the Middle East, and many other countries around the world.

If you see someone that’s poor, it isn’t their fault.
If you see that person again 10 years later and they are still poor, 95% (or more) of the time it IS their fault.

Want a true story?

My Uncle owns an earthmoving company. One day he saw someone with a “will work for food” sign at an interstate exit, and wanted to help. He stopped and walked up to the guy and said “I need someone to watch a worksite for us. I’ll pay you $20 an hour and train you in a job so you can stay with us when we finish this job. If you need a place to stay before you get your first paycheck, you can stay at the hotel we are staying in.”

The guy said: “No thanks; I make more than that standing here”

A huge majority of the time, people that STAY poor, have made the decision to be poor. Anyone can be poor, but, in America, only those unwilling to put in the effort stay poor.

Note: There are a FEW exceptions... Very Very Few.

Note: I’m not saying that everyone can become rich; I’m saying that those willing to work can at least reach middle class.

Quoted for truth.

[SmackinYaUp]

I understand both sides, but obviously I agree with laeelin. It does sound smug saying that I can get a job and so can you, but I don't think I can change this attitude yet. Even here where there are plenty of jobs and a low cost of living people still choose to live like shit.

People I work with still waste 2 weeks worth of full time working on a big sack of weed and some mcdonalds every time, still do stupid shit and go to jail, buy clothes and stupid shit for their cars but don't bother buying a toothbrush, saving up for a car, saving up to move out of their friend's basement, etc...

Heres my personal testimony: I had to kick my friend out of the apartment because he decided to have his girlfriend come live with us. He had met her at a party out of town and decided that instead of staying at the halfway house in new mexico, she should come live with us. She showed up at the front door with nothing but the clothes on her back. Her parents had ditched her and she literally had nothing. 'Ok, I think its a stupid idea, but if the guy is pussywhipped by this girl fine, I'll let her stay here and get on her feet and not pay rent'. All I asked of her was to clean up the apartment and find a job while we were both at school and work all day.

What did she do for the month I let her stay? Locked herself in my roomate's room and played internet games all day long and wore the same johnny knoxville t-shirt every day. She said she didnt feel like cleaning and couldn't get a job because she had no car, but when I informed her of the quick trip, dillons, mcdonalds, dairy queen, pizza store, laundromat, and walgreen's all located LESS THAN a block away she turned a deaf ear to me and went back into the room every time. So why was I paying for half of her rent? Hit the streets bitch, my sympathy is gone. And sorry Roomate yes I did call your girlfriend a bitch and if you don't like it you can leave too. My roomate ended up taking her to his new place instead, and I never heard from them again. Am I an asshole?

This is just one example and sure they can be found for every side, but don't we all know of multiple people unwilling to help themselves? It makes me callous.

[Cocco_Bill]

Hello, my name is Patrick Bateman. I'm 27 years old. I have all the characteristics of a human being- flesh, blood, skin, hair-but not a single clear, identifiable emotion except for greed, and disgust for the poor and homeless. I see myself walking a dark alleyway, shooting 6 rounds into some human garbage crouched in a pile of garbage. I will continue my path to American Gardens Building on W. 81st Street on the 11th floor and enjoy a very fine Chardonnay.

[koolmoe]

I understand both sides, but obviously I agree with laeelin. It does sound smug saying that I can get a job and so can you, but I don't think I can change this attitude yet. Even here where there are plenty of jobs and a low cost of living people still choose to live like shit.

That's the bottom line. People make the choice to live that life. But you can't just tell them to make a different choice and expect a different behavior from them.

People need hope. People need a vision for their (better) future to motivate them to change their behavior. Our welfare system provides money, which is really only ancillary to the problem, IMO. A fortunate few see beyond their surroundings, and they are the ones that get out.

[Laeelin]

With many changes:

Give a man a fish, and he will come ask you for another one 3 times a day. Teach a man to fish, and you now have a friend to take fishing with you, that can now feed himself, and teach his friends how to fish by himself.

We need to stop with the endless handouts, and ramp up the life education. Welfare shouldnt just be a free handout system, it should be an education system.

Start teaching money management, budgeting, and how to get a better job. REQUIRE attendence to get the check.

============

One lady that works as the gas station close to where we live is on welfare. I have overheard 2 discussions between her and friends while standing in line that say worlds about the problems in that system.

1) She was telling a friend of hers just how much more she would get if she just had 2 kids, suggesting that she should have a couple children because her check would be bigger.... Talk about sad.

2) She told a friend that she was going to spend her entire next paycheck on some scratch-off lottery ticket because people win with it so much she would make money. That’s what she thinks will make her rich one day... Not getting a better job, not saving, but the lottery!!!!

[SmackinYaUp]

That’s what she thinks will make her rich one day... Not getting a better job, not saving, but the lottery!!!!

Poker is just a lottery and I'm gonna get rich too.

[michael1123]

Christ...
"This simply reinforces the data that if you are black you are more likely to be poor and "disadvantaged"
^^^This may be true, but noone stops the poor and disadvantaged from going to school and moving up the ladder. Here's another blanket statement that is largely true: Asians are more likely to be affluent, literate, and educated. Does George Bush love Asians? OR is it something in their culture that encourages education and career prosperity?


Stop blaming "the man" for the lack of initiative, ambition, and general success for some. Go listen to some Larry Elder... please

Jesus christ ... did you just label all black people as unambitious slackers? You come off as more racist than Mrs. Bush in this post.

[RHCNNN]

WTF? I did no such thing. I quoted the person above me with the line about being black means you're likely to be poor/disadvantaged.
I would not make a statement like that about a whole race... but I certainly would about a poor ghetto part of town in LA, louisiana, NY, wherever. I don't know if you've ever been to poor black areas suck as Compton, or poor mexican areas like east LA... but they are FULL of unambitious slackers. Not ALL of them, but the majority.
So there. I didn't call all black people unambitious slackers in the first place... but since you bring it up, that is often an appropriate label for big poor minority communities.

I have no bias against other's just because of their race... but to pretend like tendencies don't exist in certain COMMUNTIES is just ignorant. BTW, my mother is mexican, came from a poor ass family in Compton... my girlfriend is Chinese, and her dad was a piss poor chinese immigrant who became a stock broker here, and my dad was a poor white trash from england who became a professional boxer who made more than 7 figures in his career. No one is doomed to stay in their surroundings... so f those who blame george bush for their troubles. People need to take some personal accountability. Like i said, LArry Elder 790AM... tune in.

[Laeelin]

Christ...
"This simply reinforces the data that if you are black you are more likely to be poor and "disadvantaged"
^^^This may be true, but noone stops the poor and disadvantaged from going to school and moving up the ladder. Here's another blanket statement that is largely true: Asians are more likely to be affluent, literate, and educated. Does George Bush love Asians? OR is it something in their culture that encourages education and career prosperity?


Stop blaming "the man" for the lack of initiative, ambition, and general success for some. Go listen to some Larry Elder... please

Jesus christ ... did you just label all black people as unambitious slackers? You come off as more racist than Mrs. Bush in this post.

He did say "some".

If he is saying "some blacks" thats fine.
If he is saying "some people (of any race)" thats fine.
If he is sayinf "some people (the blacks)" thats racist.

I will not just toss arround the word racist just because of something like that, racist is a very ugly word and should only be applied where it is deserved, not where it might be deserved (and in this case, i'm sure it's not deserved).

Being poor is a cultral thing (as in the people arround you, not as in your races culture) not a racial thing anyway.

BTW: Bill Cosby has the right idea on that subject.

[a500lbgorilla]

Alright, I just need to know one thing? Do I need to lock this thread or is the discussion cool? (I haven't read a word of this thread past post 1 becuase I don't like the smell of it)

-'rilla

[chardrian]

Boy this thread sure has become a fun one huh? But I do love a good debate.

First of all - I never intended for my original post (or any of my posts) to blame good ole "W" for anything. My intent was simply to bring up the fact that race does matter and I don't understand why people are so uneasy about admitting this.

Secondly, the comment "unambitious slackers ... is often an appropriate label for big poor minority communities" smacks of racism. This statement equates poor minorities as being people with less value than others. But at least he is willing to admit that this is how he feels.

[Laeelin]

Boy this thread sure has become a fun one huh? But I do love a good debate.

This thread has (IMO) stayed in that wonderful world of debate and opinion... Not into the hate/spiteful level we all hate so much.

First of all - I never intended for my original post (or any of my posts) to blame good ole "W" for anything. My intent was simply to bring up the fact that race does matter and I don't understand why people are so uneasy about admitting this.

I dont admit it because I dont think it does. I dont think that it would have made any diffrence if everyone involved had been white, black, red, or blue. As a culture we just dont think that way anymore. Sure you have a few people that still do, but as a culture we dont. HOWEVER, many many people want to be able to blame things on race that have nothing to do with race.

3 facts:

1. Racism will always exist.
2. Racism is a very minor peroblem in amreica.
3. Assumeing that racism is the problem when it isn't raceism leaves the real problems unsolved.

Secondly, the comment "unambitious slackers ... is often an appropriate label for big poor minority communities" smacks of racism. This statement equates poor minorities as being people with less value than others. But at least he is willing to admit that this is how he feels.

Why do you think that the AVERAGE person in a poor communitiy is poor?

"unambitious slackers" may sound harsh, but it is true.

Not for all, but for most.

Why else would you have a minimum wage job at 30?

Really think about that...

How can someone be only making minimum wage at 30.

Even a high school dropout can drive a truck for several time that pay.

UPS pays several times that just for loading trucks (and a LOT more for anything above that)

90%+ of the people in a poor community have made a choice to be there. They might not realise it, but they made that choice when they decided that playing poker (or watching TV or whatever) was more important than getting a better job, getting that GED/Cert/Whatever.

And you know what?

As long as they are happy with the life they live, I dont have any problem with it. Not everyone dreams of having the same things. Not everyone has the same wants and needs and desires. I dont think less of someone because they dont want to do the work to get a better job, but I DO think less of someone that wants to live off the work of other people (welfare).

ps: Before I had a family, "unambitious slacker" fit me well. I didn’t want to do the work to have a good job, and I did over the phone tech support. I could afford my magic cards, a new computer every now and then, and a used car + gas. What more did I need? I was happy with my life. Only when I met my wife did things change. I started wanting more for myself and for her, and later for my son. I wouldn’t be where I am today if it wasn’t for my family. I didn’t desire those things.

But even then I didn’t live off of my parents or the state. I had a job; I paid for my own things, and didn’t have any form of welfare.

[RHCNNN]

3 facts:

1. Racism will always exist.
2. Racism is a very minor peroblem in amreica.
3. Assumeing that racism is the problem when it isn't raceism leaves the real problems unsolved.

truer words have never been typed on FTR ....

except probably by rilla or something

[chardrian]

Why do you think that the AVERAGE person in a poor communitiy is poor?

"unambitious slackers" may sound harsh, but it is true.

Not for all, but for most.

Why else would you have a minimum wage job at 30?

Really think about that...

I think that the average person in a poor community is poor because there is a "culture" of poverty from which they cannot escape. To say that poor people have no ambition of trying to improve their lives is... well it is just silly. Of course they want to improve their lives. The quick response that is being repeated is well why don't they do something about it then? Get educated, get a job, work hard... that's the American way.

I'm going to respond to this by saying I believe this is just too simplistic. It is not looking at the entire picture. This is very easy to say when you grew up in an area where you actually could get an education, could get a job, and through hard work could lead a "respectable" middle class life.

On the other hand, if you were to have grown up in an area where your education was drastically inferior to that of surrounding areas, where drugs and alcohol addiction are rampant, where the only people who are getting out of poverty are athletes and entertainers, where jobs other than minimum wage ones are not readily available, it becomes a differenct story.

When you grow up in a society that tells you that you are literally worth less... well, I too would find it hard to believe that by hard work and perserverance I will break the cycle of poverty.

I am not trying to say that breaking the cycle of poverty can't be done. I am trying to say that it is not an easy thing to do.

[RHCNNN]

Agreed ^^^ not an easy thing to do. But its not Bush's fault either if they don't do it. F Kanye West.

[Laeelin]

This is very easy to say when you grew up in an area where you actually could get an education, could get a job, and through hard work could lead a "respectable" middle class life.

In other words...

America.

I think that the average person in a poor community is poor because there is a "culture" of poverty from which they cannot escape.

Why do so many of them escape if its so hard?

Everyone knows to "Just say NO!"
Everyone knows that school is important.
Everyone knows that you want a good job.

Just just the "rich white men", but all of America.


Someone living in a third world has every reason to be in that situation.

Someone living in america doesnt. If you live in a bad community, then move. Even the worst school in america still teaches you enough to get to a better school, to get a much better than minimum wage/etc.

As for the job market, it's great, and has been for decades.


PS: Something that some people appear to get from this discussion when I've had it in the past is that i'm saying it's easy, so just in case, let me set the record straight.

It's NOT easy.
It IS hard.

But it's not so hard that only a few people can do it, 90%+ of the people in any comunity can do it.

You are doing them a disservice when you treat them like they cant. (note: that "you" isnt directed at any one person)

[SmackinYaUp]

Why do you think that the AVERAGE person in a poor communitiy is poor?

"unambitious slackers" may sound harsh, but it is true.

Not for all, but for most.

Why else would you have a minimum wage job at 30?

Really think about that...

I think that the average person in a poor community is poor because there is a "culture" of poverty from which they cannot escape. To say that poor people have no ambition of trying to improve their lives is... well it is just silly. Of course they want to improve their lives. The quick response that is being repeated is well why don't they do something about it then? Get educated, get a job, work hard... that's the American way.

I'm going to respond to this by saying I believe this is just too simplistic. It is not looking at the entire picture. This is very easy to say when you grew up in an area where you actually could get an education, could get a job, and through hard work could lead a "respectable" middle class life.

On the other hand, if you were to have grown up in an area where your education was drastically inferior to that of surrounding areas, where drugs and alcohol addiction are rampant, where the only people who are getting out of poverty are athletes and entertainers, where jobs other than minimum wage ones are not readily available, it becomes a differenct story.

When you grow up in a society that tells you that you are literally worth less... well, I too would find it hard to believe that by hard work and perserverance I will break the cycle of poverty.

I am not trying to say that breaking the cycle of poverty can't be done. I am trying to say that it is not an easy thing to do.

Its not a culture of poverty, its a culture of victimization. I am not at fault for my actions, I am a victim of my society. <--- Give me a break, our society is what makes it possible for people to make better lives for themselves.

However, I do think that if a kid is raised in a neighborhood where "drug and alcohol addiction are rampant" and had bad parents that were druggies and never bothered to teach him anything then yes, he is most likely fucked. There's nothing realistic that we or the government can do about that, short of de-balling every man who doesn't pass a basic parenting skills test.

[DoGGz]

lock it

[Laeelin]

short of de-balling every man who doesn't pass a basic parenting skills test.

hmmm.....

[Laeelin]

lock it

?

Why?

[DoGGz]

lock it

?

Why?

because I'm bored

Do.U.C.Y.

[boost]

I dont admit it because I dont think it does. I dont think that it would have made any diffrence if everyone involved had been white, black, red, or blue. As a culture we just dont think that way anymore. Sure you have a few people that still do, but as a culture we dont. HOWEVER, many many people want to be able to blame things on race that have nothing to do with race.

Ok I havent read much in this thread but I skimmed through it and this stood out to me. You are horribly, horribly wrong. I strongly believe that almost everyone in this country is racist. Me included. This doesnt mean everyone is a KKK member or something to that extent, however there are varying levels of racism. Also I think that a lot of white people that live in rural or atleast less urban areas think that the civil rights movement happened, and therefore solved everything. They think that everyone has had a fair chance ever since the 70's or something. Some people are under the impression that everyone had a fair chance since the end of slavery. Thats just silly. If a whole race of people in the country starts off in slavery, and then jimcrow and other 'hidden' forms of racism and oppression, its not going to be that simple to just bounce out of it. Also I dont blame rich people for being rich, and I dont blame them all for whats going on. But there is an elitist class in this country one that has pull everywhere in our society, and it is in thier interset to keep poor people poor. If poor people arent poor, guess what they arent rich. And I still consider most middle class people poor. They are just given the illusion that they arent poor. So they can sit back and be content running up credit card debt and having a few commodities. Its the same as slavery in my eyes, but its more ingenius. Now the slaves are "happy", they feel like they actually have something. Now the 'slaves' are being pushed all through highschool to go to college, this means they are tryin to help us right!? Wrong, most people go to college being middle classed, and leave still middle classed. They just have the illusion that they are moving up in society. Of course some break through this and become very wealthy but that just adds to the illusion that going to college is going to catipult you into the upper class of society.

Anyways, that might have been a bit of a rant, but I think anyone who thinks racism is largely defeated in american is very misguided in thier thinking. Same sorta person that when asked what they think about racial profiling would say "well they shouldnt be on the corner all dressed in gang colors selling drugs" .. news flash!!! not all minorities on a corner that are wearing similar clothes are in a gang and / or drug dealers. I dont think the white people need to pay reperations to decendants of slaves, but just think before you open your mouth and say that racism is a thing of the past.

[michael1123]

I think that the average person in a poor community is poor because there is a "culture" of poverty from which they cannot escape. To say that poor people have no ambition of trying to improve their lives is... well it is just silly. Of course they want to improve their lives. The quick response that is being repeated is well why don't they do something about it then? Get educated, get a job, work hard... that's the American way.

I'm going to respond to this by saying I believe this is just too simplistic. It is not looking at the entire picture. This is very easy to say when you grew up in an area where you actually could get an education, could get a job, and through hard work could lead a "respectable" middle class life.

On the other hand, if you were to have grown up in an area where your education was drastically inferior to that of surrounding areas, where drugs and alcohol addiction are rampant, where the only people who are getting out of poverty are athletes and entertainers, where jobs other than minimum wage ones are not readily available, it becomes a differenct story.

When you grow up in a society that tells you that you are literally worth less... well, I too would find it hard to believe that by hard work and perserverance I will break the cycle of poverty.

I am not trying to say that breaking the cycle of poverty can't be done. I am trying to say that it is not an easy thing to do.

Beautiful post, my friend. Dead on.

[Laeelin]

Anyways, that might have been a bit of a rant, but I think anyone who thinks racism is largely defeated in american is very misguided in thier thinking. Same sorta person that when asked what they think about racial profiling would say "well they shouldnt be on the corner all dressed in gang colors selling drugs" .. news flash!!! not all minorities on a corner that are wearing similar clothes are in a gang and / or drug dealers.

People know that just because a lot of people that do something (like stand on a corner dressed in similar clothes) are doing something bad (like selling drugs) not all that do that are. But that doesn’t mean that you should ignore the facts.

It just means that you don’t condemn someone for doing the one without doing the other.

Let me put it this way...

If your car has been broken into by someone breaking the window while parked at work the last two day, and you look outside to check on your car and see three 18ish guys walking to your car with a baseball bat, should you ignore it because it's profiling?

No.

But you also shouldn’t assume that they are going to bust your window because they are a group of 18ish guys with a baseball bat.

If something is known to be LIKELY, then it shouldn’t be ignored.

Don’t try to make something racial when it isn’t...

Fact: A group of black kids standing on the street corner dressed in similar clothes is LIKELY to be selling drugs.

INCORRECT assumptions at least half the people that read the above statement will make:

1. That I think that someone that is black and is standing on the corner like that is selling drugs.
2. That I think black people should be arrested for doing that.
3. That I think all/most/lots of black people sell drugs.
4. That I think that a black person is more likely to be selling drugs than a white person.
5. That I think fewer white people sell drugs/use drugs than black people.

That statement has nothing to do with a race; it has everything to do with a statistical fact. (I bet that there is the same chance when you’re talking about a group of white people doing it.)

Another example....

Fact: The vast majority of terrorism in the United States and the Middle East is from Muslims.

Fact: We should pay closer attention to a Muslim than a black/white/japanise/ect when doing background checks before getting on a commercial airplane.

INCORRECT assumptions people make about that statement:
1. Muslims are terrorist
2. Muslims are bad.
3. All terrorist are Muslims.
4. If we just stop the Muslims, no terrorist will get on airplanes.
5. We shouldn’t be watching the black/white/japanise/ect when doing background checks, just the Muslims.


I'm going to hit below the belt this time....

Fact: I child that regularly comes to school with bruises, and has had several broken bones is probably being abused.

Still think we should avoid profiling?

To ignore a fact based profile is just as stupid as condemning someone just for doing whatever is in the profile.

[SmackinYaUp]

Hey boost, I am just going to respond to a couple of points you made. In no way am I attacking you or your thinking.

And I still consider most middle class people poor. They are just given the illusion that they arent poor.

Why do you say this? I think its just the opposite. Most middle class people are convinced they are poor because they don't own escalades and plasma screen TVs. Our middle class has it very good compared to most countries in the world, and our poor have it much better than most other countries. I wouldn't want to be poor anywhere, but if I had to be poor let me assure you I wouldn't pick for it to take place in Rwanda, Afghanistan, China, India, Indonesia, Thailand, Brazil, Columbia, Uruguay, Iraq, Iran, Suadi Arabia, Mexico or anywhere else not named "United States."

Same sorta person that when asked what they think about racial profiling would say "well they shouldnt be on the corner all dressed in gang colors selling drugs" .. news flash!!! not all minorities on a corner that are wearing similar clothes are in a gang and / or drug dealers

Laeelin explained this point pretty well, I'd say. Sure not all minorities who dress similar and stand around on a corner are in a gang or sell drugs, but about the ones who arent actually in gangs/drugs are acting like they do by dressing similarly and standing on a street corner. Why would they be there? The human brains recognizes patterns and there is a fine line between that natural skill and racism, but there is a line. This example does not cross that line in my opinion.

Wrong, most people go to college being middle classed, and leave still middle classed. They just have the illusion that they are moving up in society.

Where exactly did you come up with this? If you sit on your ass after college, sure you'll be middle classed. What is the average American income? Like 30-40,000. You can do better than this with a college education. Did you mean the day after college? Sure, most people are broke as hell the day after they graduate.

Also, why is the system not fair for the descendants of slaves? Where are these hidden forms of racial oppression? I'm not seeing it. (I guess because its so well hidden.)

[DaNutsInYoEye]

When you grow up in a society that tells you that you are literally worth less... well, I too would find it hard to believe that by hard work and perserverance I will break the cycle of poverty.

You're right. We should hold everyone's hand, sing kumbaya and tell them how special of a person they are. Everyone will be picking themselves up by the bootstraps in no time...

Come on man, did your mother breast feed you until the age of 6? That has to be one of the most PC comments that I've heard in awhile. In all but extreme cases, you get what you put in. If you work hard you will see results. If you sit on your ass, well then don't be pissed if you don't like the outcome. It applies to all aspects of life.[/quote]

[boost]

When you grow up in a society that tells you that you are literally worth less... well, I too would find it hard to believe that by hard work and perserverance I will break the cycle of poverty.

You're right. We should hold everyone's hand, sing kumbaya and tell them how special of a person they are. Everyone will be picking themselves up by the bootstraps in no time...

Come on man, did your mother breast feed you until the age of 6? That has to be one of the most PC comments that I've heard in awhile. In all but extreme cases, you get what you put in. If you work hard you will see results. If you sit on your ass, well then don't be pissed if you don't like the outcome. It applies to all aspects of life.

[/quote]

are you kidding? You think that George W. Bush put in as much as some kid that works hard al lhis life gets into college and stuff and gets a decent job that can comfortably provide for his family? I dont think so, this has nothing to do with politics, its just facts about a privledged persons life, in which they put very little if anything in, and now they are the president. So a white kid from a upper middle class society may not be AS privledged, but more so then the kid born in the projects to a crackhead mother. Its not a fair and even playing field. I cant see how thats not obvious :\

[DaNutsInYoEye]

are you kidding? You think that George W. Bush put in as much as some kid that works hard al lhis life gets into college and stuff and gets a decent job that can comfortably provide for his family? I dont think so, this has nothing to do with politics, its just facts about a privledged persons life, in which they put very little if anything in, and now they are the president. So a white kid from a upper middle class society may not be AS privledged, but more so then the kid born in the projects to a crackhead mother. Its not a fair and even playing field. I cant see how thats not obvious :\

I never argued that he did. I'm not qualified to comment on how much work George W. Bush put in. I don't personally know the man and much of what I know about him is based upon anecdotal evidence from media sources that was likely presented with bias.

You totally avoided what I said though and instead picked an extreme example on one spectrum and compared its polar opposite. Like I said earlier, in most cases you get what you put it and people almost always get what they deserve. Obviously there are exceptions. There are people that get everything handed to them and don't have to do much if anything and there also crack babies that, besides usually being born into a low socioeconomic class, also have developmental problems. You're statements are essentially equating all successful people as being in the same situation and having the same opportunities as President Bush and all low income people as crack babies. Both assumptions are wrong.

Instead of the exceptions, let's look at the majority. The overwhelming majority of successful people (white, black, blue, purple, whatever) became what they are through hard work, not handouts. You're right about the playing field not being level though. Sadly that is reality. Making excuses does not begin to make it even though. You take what you are handed in life and make the best you can out of it. The 5'8 basketball player doesn't whine that the 7'2 player has a better chance to get drafted because he happened to be born tall. He just works that much harder. You don't whine and complain that your parents' only make $30,000 a year while someone else's make $200,000. You just work harder to offset any disavantages you may have. Perhaps I'm just hardheaded, but I'm a firm believer that through hard work you can overcome pretty much any obstacle.

[Laeelin]

You don't whine and complain that your parents' only make $30,000 a year while someone else's make $200,000. You just work harder to offset any disavantages you may have. Perhaps I'm just hardheaded, but I'm a firm believer that through hard work you can overcome pretty much any obstacle.

How dare you suggest that someone not born rich can become rich if they work hard!!!!

[koolmoe]

Why do so many of them escape if its so hard?

Everyone knows to "Just say NO!"
Everyone knows that school is important.
Everyone knows that you want a good job.

Just just the "rich white men", but all of America.


Someone living in a third world has every reason to be in that situation.

Someone living in america doesnt. If you live in a bad community, then move. Even the worst school in america still teaches you enough to get to a better school, to get a much better than minimum wage/etc.

It's hard to just decide to move when you are 6 years old. By the time these kids are old enough to make a choice, it is often too late for it to make a difference. My wife is an elementary school teacher who has shared with me stories of her disadvantaged students who were painfully far behind in school and life. A number of these kids ended up in jail by high school.

It is so easy to say that people just need to make a different choice, but there is a cycle and a culture that makes it difficult.

Saying that poor people are just lazy is an easy out that ignores the fact that there is a systemic failure (and I'm not talking about a government system but rather a societal system) that makes it exceedingly difficult for the lowest in our society to rise above their beginnings to better their lot in life.

I willingly acknowledge that the situation in the US is among the best in the world, at least as far as I am aware. Could it be better, though?

[DaNutsInYoEye]

Saying that poor people are just lazy is an easy out that ignores the fact that there is a systemic failure (and I'm not talking about a government system but rather a societal system) that makes it exceedingly difficult for the lowest in our society to rise above their beginnings to better their lot in life.

I don't care what anyone says, but children not doing well in school is much more of a product of poor parenting and a lack of direction at home than it is of the actual school system. Children that succeed are the ones instilled with the importance of doing well in school. These parents make sure their kids go to school. They help them with their homework. They discipline them when they get out of line. How much motivation a child gets from parental figures is much more important than how much money that parental figure has in their bank account. Since when do you need money to work hard? A school system can have all the money in the world, but it won't make a difference if the children don't open their books. It's the responsibility of the school system to teach, but it's the reposibility of the students to learn and their parents to make them learn.

There is not systemic failure. If there was, how come the exact same systems is working in thousands of other places? It's not society's responsibilty to make sure everyone succeeds. People need to start taking more personal responsibility for their actions. People like to blame everyone but themselves. They like to look for answers in other places when the first place they should look is at themself.

The greatest institution in this country is the family. The concept of family and "family values" has deteriorated so much in our country. As it has, our society has begun followed with it. People are instead turning towards the school system and other forms of government to raise the children. People need to quit making excuses and step-up.

My wife is an elementary school teacher who has shared with me stories of her disadvantaged students who were painfully far behind in school and life. A number of these kids ended up in jail by high school.

Again, in most cases I blame the parents.

It is so easy to say that people just need to make a different choice, but there is a cycle and a culture that makes it difficult.

You're absolutely right. Its the culture these people live in that allows them to think that it's alright to live the way they are. If the kids in my neighborhood weren't going to school I probably wouldn't want to either. If my single mother had 5 kids she couldn't afford to care of without government aid I would probably think that was acceptable. It's natural to come to accept what you see around you. The majority of examples children growing up this way have are negative ones. It's easy to tell them they should do this or act in that manner, but when what they see around them contradicts that message, they'll typically default to their surroundings.

Throwing money at these people does not help. It may alleviate some of the surface issues, but neglects the core of the problem. Blaming rich, white republicans doesn't help either. It only shifts the focus away from the real issue. These people need to be educated. Not in the traditional sense of math and history, but on health concerns, finances, parenting, etc. Their ignorance in these areas perpetuates the cycle of poverty. It's often not that they aren't willing to work hard or that they don't already, but their efforts are often misguided or their other actions negate all the hard work that they put in.

The government needs to help these people. I also feel that people that are already successful have a major responsibilty to help as well. Money, time and other resources need to be devoted to these people. Our efforts need to be refocused though. Giving them money every month is only a temporary solution to a long term problem. Busing children to other districts only makes the people in charge of the busing feel better.

People need to start taking more responsibility for themselves and we need to assist them in ways that will address the real issues.

[Greedo017]

There's way too much in this thread to really get at all of it, but just a few comments on some things.

first of all, its ridiculous to claim george bush didn't work hard. if you don't like the man, ok, but the world wasn't just handed to him on a silver platter, he's still much much smarter than your average guy. even if he didn't work as hard as the typical yale grad, he worked much harder than the typical crap U grad.

secondly about racism. no of course its not dead and gone and it will never be, but this was never claimed. Actually, laeelin specifically said racism will always exist, and it will always be made a bigger deal of than it deserves. this is a perfect example of it being blamed needlessly, and keeping the real problems from being fully attended to. Do you honestly think racism was the reason that more and faster care wasn't given to new orleans? You think everything would've turned out perfectly, if only George W. wasn't so damn racist? Can you tell me how him loving or hating black people - or any person's feelings about black people for that matter - had any affect on this at all?

Rich people do not want poor people to stay poor. Rich people want as large and as wealthy of a middle class as possible, and generally want everyone to get richer for the good of society. Rich people are rich because they are smart and hard working, not because their secret pleasure in life is keeping everyone else down, nor is it necessary for them to maintain their wealth: there will always be rich people so long as we're not communists.

So, you are saying there are no benefits to going to college? nobody is saying going to college will turn your life around and you'll be rich. The average person is not rich because they are average. That's the definition of the word. The question is, does average = in poverty? it does not. The average person in this country has shelter, nice food, flies on nice vacations, sets their ac to 67, can afford kids, drinks or smokes or gambles, etc. etc. its not some awful life. I have a friend whose parents moved here dirt poor from korea when he was 4 (now 21). They lived in an apartment up until a couple years ago. They drove old cars. his mom works at 7-11 and his dad does some carpentry. They just bought a nice house in a nice area, a new car, and are putting their only child through college, and soon law school. There are enough opportunities to move up in this world: leave the bottom rung jobs to the mexicans who are eager to get them.

[DoGGz]

There is a lot here, but something hasn't been touched on.

THERE HAS TO BE A LOWER CLASS

There are many professions that just could not exsist if the workers were making 30$/hr. You cannot train all the lower class americans to become IT professionals, because SOMEONE has to work those lower class jobs. If you removed the current lower class, there will be people to come replace them...

Communisim only works in theory boys.

[chardrian]

When you grow up in a society that tells you that you are literally worth less... well, I too would find it hard to believe that by hard work and perserverance I will break the cycle of poverty.

You're right. We should hold everyone's hand, sing kumbaya and tell them how special of a person they are. Everyone will be picking themselves up by the bootstraps in no time...

Come on man, did your mother breast feed you until the age of 6? That has to be one of the most PC comments that I've heard in awhile. In all but extreme cases, you get what you put in. If you work hard you will see results. If you sit on your ass, well then don't be pissed if you don't like the outcome. It applies to all aspects of life.

[/quote]

[quote="Greed0017"]

leave the bottom rung jobs to mexicans who are eager to get them.

I was not going to respond at all. But I've decided to get back into the fray. I am responding to these two comments because both are directed at me. In order to respond, I feel like I need to give some background about myself so you can understand where my views are coming from. It's time to get personal.

I am a mexican-american who was born in Nigeria to liberal, highly-educated, middle-class parents. I grew up in the liberal island of the Midwest, known as Madison, Wisconsin. I am also white - that's right it is possible to be mexican-american and white. I am the honkiest mexican (arguably even african)-american you have seen. So the only racism I have truly faced is that I happen to be the guy who is always "randomly" selected to be searched when I fly because of my last name.

I was fortunate enough to go to a public school system that is one of the best in the nation. Kids from my highschool district are expected to go to 4-yr universities. I went to college. Got married. Went to the Peace Corps. Went to law school. I have travelled and studied in many countries around the world. In other words, I have led a very privileged life.

Yet, I also know the value of hard work. Because I didn't want to go into debt just for an undergraduate degree, I worked 30 hours a week at a grocery store while going to school full-time.

So that's my background. Here's my response.

DaNuts - I have found much of what you have written compelling. And I believe that we are actually in agreement with the majority of our thoughts. I am also a firm believer in hard work. I too believe, that our welfare system does no good by simply throwing money at people with out giving them incentives to work. I am hoping that your potshot, is just that. I might very well be PC, but if you truly believe that I am just trying to sing "What the World Needs Now is Love Sweet Love" as a solution to our problems, then you did not read my posts carefully enough.

I am a proud, patriotic American. I love this country very much. My posts were meant to display my belief that even though we live in, what I believe is, the best country in the world, that doesn't mean that there are not things we can do to make it even better. I think we share this belief - and I have been enjoying the debate as to how this can be accomplished.

Greed - if you were trying to be funny... well what's funny to some is just disrespectful to others. Racist comments and jokes are either totally inappropriate or appropriate only in a very private forum. As a mexican-american I took offense to this comment. Call me a crybaby, call me a tit-suckler, I really don't care. The majority of these posts have been espousing a view that hard work pays off in the end. This comment reinforces two points: 1) racism exists; 2) racism matters - if mexicans can't work their way up through hard work in "bottom rung jobs", how is anyone else supposed to?

[SmackinYaUp]

Yea the mexican comment was not needed. Mexicans willing to work their asses off in what we consider "bottom-rung" jobs does show how good we have it here compared to other countries like Mexico. They deserve higher pay because they work their fucking asses off. You ever see Mexicans out demonstrating in the streets, begging for more handouts? No, its because they are too busy working long hours for their families.