straight draws are underrated

[Greedo017]

***** Hand History for Game 2963167660 *****
$50 NL Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, November 01, 03:51:47 EDT 2005
Table Table 69427 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: Checho13 ( $62.25 )
Seat 2: Paulocai ( $34.45 )
Seat 3: gowild777 ( $23.90 )
Seat 7: Wahoo2006 ( $52.25 )
Seat 8: pootoos ( $42.80 )
Seat 9: JABAJR ( $38.70 )
Seat 10: PeelAnother1 ( $43.75 )
Seat 4: crazy2009 ( $50 )
Wahoo2006 posts small blind [$0.25].
pootoos posts big blind [$0.50].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Wahoo2006 [ 7d 6d ]
JABAJR raises [$1].
PeelAnother1 folds.
Paulocai raises [$2].
gowild777 folds.
Wahoo2006 calls [$1.75].
pootoos folds.
JABAJR calls [$1].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 9c, Js, 8c ]
Wahoo2006 checks.
JABAJR checks.
Paulocai bets [$6.20].
Wahoo2006 calls [$6.20].
JABAJR folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2s ]
Wahoo2006 checks.
Paulocai bets [$6].
Wahoo2006 calls [$6].
** Dealing River ** [ 3c ]
Wahoo2006 bets [$21].

[Fnord]

Heee Haw!

I fold every street.

[DoGGz]

Heee Haw!

I fold every street.

[Pingviini]

Flop is the worts street, sorry dude but this call is horrible. You have _perhaps_ as 4 clean outs and yet you call a pot sized bet.

Fold while you still can.

[Greedo017]

if you don't like the call preflop, ok, i think its pretty marginal. also, I was multitabling like crazy at the time, I don't usually call with suited connectors but i do sometimes, this probably wasn't a great spot for it but whatever.

if you had an outside straight flush draw, would you play it this way?

do i not have one?

[Pingviini]

sorry, I am not quite sure what you mean by outside straight flush draw. Could you give an exact example or the hand and circumstances such as reads as well?

[Greedo017]

outside straight flush draw, meaning that I am drawing to both a flush and a straight.

for example, I have 6d 7d, the flop comes 8d 9d Kx. Now, any diamond, any 5, and any T make my hand.

and, i'm not sure exactly what you mean by reads. In the hand above, paul was not an idiot, that's about my read. Its reasonable he hit the J or has an overpair.

The point I am getting at with that, to not beat around the bush, is in this situation there are two clubs on the flop, but does it matter whether I have them or not? If a club comes, as did here, the fold equity of a big bet by me is ~100%. If my straight comes, I value bet. There is the risk of him betting the turn huge, but this risk happens playing real oesfd's also.

[Pingviini]

isnt 6d7d on a 8d9dkx board a straight flush draw? what is the thing is "outside". Here the scenario is totally different, all your outs should be clean, you have 15 outs total. If you add folding equity by betting or even CR'ing him. Your pot equity after the flop is way over 0.5. I would be quite aggressive here, especially if i put him on K.

The point in the examples is the amount of clean outs compared to the odds given to you.

[Greedo017]

sorry, change that king to a J in the example, I wasn't thinking it was important but it is. that makes my top 4 outs dirty.

And, I just called it "outside" to distinguish from this situation

hand 6d 7d board 8d Td Kx

there, only the 9 makes your straight, so its an inside straight flush draw (4 less outs than outside).



And, i'm going to sleep now, maybe i'll wait a little bit and try to explain again in the morning. What i'm saying, is that I can with high accuracy say that villain is not drawing to a flush. So, if I know that a flush card coming will pretty much give me 100% fold equity, why should I not treat my situation as if they are actual outs? The hand I posted may be a borderline example because that was a big flop raise, but in general I find if i have a straight draw, I can call bets that are too big EV wise, and if i hit my straight i collect lots of value bets, and if the flush scare card comes, I bet big and they fold, which makes this a +EV play. I don't do this all the time this situation comes up, but if i can put my opponent on a moderate hand, and I myself either have a draw or a moderate hand I want to showdown cheap or get them to fold with, pretending to be drawing to the flush has worked for me many times.

[Pingviini]

First of all you didnt mention that in the first place. second, even though your opponent doesnt have the flush it isnt really 100% that he will fold when the 3rd card hits, not even close I would say.

Gn and lets continue this when you are back with us again

[arkana]

Drawing to the straight with the option of bluffing if the flush card comes can be profitable depending on if the opponent can fold. I would prefer doing it when I am not drawing to the idiot end of the straight though, since a T does not guarantee you the best hand here. You also need to be good at reading hands else you will end up making second best hands and dumping a lot of chips.

[Irisheyes]

if you don't like the call preflop, ok, i think its pretty marginal. also, I was multitabling like crazy at the time, I don't usually call with suited connectors but i do sometimes, this probably wasn't a great spot for it but whatever.

I don't usually call raises with suited connectors in the first place but here its raise, raise again then you call with the initial raiser still to act. Not a good idea IMO.

On the flop what happened to pot odds?

do i not have one?

Huh!? No you dont have one. Your hole cards are diamonds and there is 2 clubs on the board.
Am I missing something here? I know I got way less experience then you greedo but this seems like clear fold all the way?



Edit: Oops Sorry ignore this, I kinda forgot to read one or two of the posts in the thread. I see what you mean now.

[Greedo017]

"I don't usually call raises with suited connectors in the first place but here its raise, raise again then you call with the initial raiser still to act. Not a good idea IMO."

well true, but the first raise was a minraise, and the next raise was just to 2, so it was only the size of one normal raise.


And, arkana is right, these are all things i should've included. I guess i went about explaining this in a really poor way, it was late. All i wanted to ask with this, was whether everyone thought it was a terrible idea of drawing to a straight (or in another similar situation) with the intention of bluffing the flush if it comes to give you some +EV, as I'd say i've done this maybe a dozen times now and its worked a lot. From the sound of it, this situation was a tricky one to use, i just felt like it would work here and was underestimating the hurt of some outs being dirty. I think its a great thing to do every once in a while, because I find it works and most of the time people are petrified of the flush, and because its good for your image to look like an idiot.



Paulocai: gay
Paulocai folds.
Wahoo2006 does not show cards.
Wahoo2006 wins $50.40

[r8ed]

I agree about the "idiot" end of the straight here. That's just one more possible negative aspect - even if you hit your straight, you could still lose. He could have QQ and if the ten hits....

[Rondavu]

I love your play here, though the idiot end made it sketchy. Thinking with outs is excellent poker. If you know your opponent is capable of laying down, and you put him on a hand, then you can effectively add 9 outs to your draw that have excellent fold equity attached to them. The flush outs "protect" your investment so to speak.

Multi draw boards with position against a tight read should be used as you see here.

Just remember that when you play this way, you BETTER know your opponent well, and your read BETTER be solid. It's like driving a volvo down an alley. Very little margin for error.

If you can consistently find edges like this in tight spots, then I commend you. This is what poker is all about. You used the board against a solid opponent. Damn right. Great example. Greater if you weren't riding the ass end

Incidentally, this shouldn't be used in reverse. You should never bluff a straight coordination when your flush misses. Instead, extract the implied odds from a made straight when it appears you missed your flush by overbetting.

[Lukie]

This was played absolutely terrible, IMO.

{This post has been removed}

[Pelion]

This was played absolutely terrible, IMO.

why..?

[Miffed22001]

why draw if you arent gettingthe correct odds
isnt that like -ev or something importnat like that?

[Greedo017]

thank you rondavu

I think i've done all the explaining I can do here. criticize it being the ass end of the straight if you wish, i agree that makes it sketchy, but i'm usually not so fearful of that type of thing when there are 4-6 hands they could be on, and qq is the only one that spoils my high outs. if the high straight hits i'm probably not getting destacked if they have me beat, and i'm winning in many more ways. i dunno, whateva.

[Infamous]

Would you have bet $20 on the river with AXc ?

[Greedo017]

i would never be in this situation with axc i don't think, but probably no, it would've been smaller. people bet too big when they hit their draws anyway though, i'd normally bet it smaller because I wanted it called, and if i'd bet 10 he would've called it.

[KoRnholio]

I wont pay one lousy chip for the ass end of a straight draw ...wasted money

If even Ripp won't take that gamble, you definitely shouldn't

Not only is it the idiot end of the straight draw, if the ten comes it puts four to the straight out there so you're losing to any Qx and splitting with any 7x. That's much worse than if you had 87 on a board of say, 69J where if a ten hits, someone would still need exactly 8Q or KQ for the higher straight. In this latter case, your T out is still a bit dirty, but not completely crab-infested skank dirty.

[Lukie]

This was played absolutely terrible, IMO.

why..?

1. Calling a reraise preflop with suited connectors in the SB.
2. Check-calling a pot-size bet with a weak draw on the flop. Not only is it the 'ass-end' of the straight, but since there is a J on the board, a 10 gives any queen a straight. No diamonds were flopped, but 2 clubs did. 5c is dirty.
3. Read #1 and #2 for the turn. Similar explanations apply.

I do like the agression on the river however.

edit: also add to #2-#4 that the hand was played this way out of position. Goes hand in hand with calling out of the SB.

[Greedo017]

i can't defend the preflop call or it being a sucker straight draw. if that's anyone's opinions, so be it, i can't say i totally disagree. but saying that the 5c is dirty shows me that most of you probably aren't even reading what i said. this has been explored and i'm done, if you want to recognize it for a trick you can use by planning in advance to rep a flush if it comes, fine, if you want to recognize it as an example of when not to call with a suited connector preflop, that's your call.

[lamaros]

Why is he betting $6 on the turn, after $6.20 on the flop?

I assume he folded and you won, otherwise you wouldn't be defending this all that much... but... I would think...

A: You oponent isn't that smart and is not going to fold to your repped flush.
B: Your oponent is smart, and is not giving you credit for the flush draw.

I think it's a terrible play.

[SmackinYaUp]

I wont pay one lousy chip for the ass end of a straight draw ...wasted money

Agreed. And this ass end is especially assy on that board.

[johnny_fish]

I don't like the call preflop, because of the initial raiser behind you.

Postflop it's risky, but +EV if your read is right. 21$ might be a bit too much too. It looks more like a repped flush instead of a real one.

[lowBoy]

I think that this will only work with solid reads and those are:

a) Your opp is an aggy player and doesn't bet flush draws so heavily
b) Your opp is thinking enough that he can lay down TPTK or an overpair in the face of a flush
c) Your opp thinks you're a chaser, or at least could give you credit for the flush (ie. he doesn't know you well)

I'd say if those hold, it's one of the better plays I've seen, although the size of your river bet does seem like a flush rep rather than a bonified flush.

[Greedo017]

i bet 21 because he only had i think 20 and change left over, the pot was ~30, so it wasn't a super huge bet. i agree that typically when you actually make your flush, you bet less, but so many people bet way big or just push when they make their draw trying to make up for their awful calls, that i think more often than not the push/big bet is believable, and uncallable, 99% of the time this happens, if you called he'd flip the flush and everyone would call you an idiot.

I agree with the other stuff you guys said, he was a simple tag, i doubt he had much of a read on me, i know if i was in his shoes there is no way i'd call off 20 bucks into a 30 pot when i don't know much about my opp and he's repping a flush like crazy. its definitely situational, he has to be bluffable, and have either enough behind or have not committed enough that he'll refuse to give it up to a flush.

[Lukie]

5c IS dirty. If your plan is to rep the flush, then rep the flush. You don't need a straight to rep a flush. Rep the flush when you have nothing. A straight still has showdown value on a 3-flush board.