Flush draw repping a made hand, flush hits

[lowBoy]

No reads other than PT's 40 hands pegging him with %38 VP$IP %11.7 PFR.

STAGE #218061369: HOLDEM NO LIMIT $0.25 - 2005-11-03 13:08:52 (ET)
Table: FRESNO (Real Money) Seat #6 is the dealer
Seat 6 - EST_PROPHET ($19.15 in chips)
Seat 7 - ZEIFER ($35.35 in chips)
Seat 8 - IWIND ($54.80 in chips)
Seat 9 - MOTELREBKR ($46.45 in chips)
Seat 1 - BUNTYMCCRUMP ($75.20 in chips)
Seat 2 - SHIFTYFISH ($18.25 in chips)
Seat 3 - ARKADII ($10.45 in chips)
Seat 4 - HOTLEAD ($50 in chips)
Seat 5 - MIDGETMNX ($60 in chips)
ZEIFER - Posts small blind $0.25
IWIND - Posts big blind $0.50
HOTLEAD - sitout (wait for BB)
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to BUNTYMCCRUMP [8c 9c]
MOTELREBKR - Calls $0.50
BUNTYMCCRUMP - Calls $0.50
SHIFTYFISH - Folds
ARKADII - Folds
MIDGETMNX - Calls $0.50
EST_PROPHET - Calls $0.50
ZEIFER - Calls $0.25
IWIND - Checks
*** FLOP *** [Ks 2c 5c]
ZEIFER - Bets $1
IWIND - Folds
MOTELREBKR - Folds
BUNTYMCCRUMP - Raises $4 to $4
MIDGETMNX - Folds
EST_PROPHET - Folds
ZEIFER - Calls $3
*** TURN *** [Ks 2c 5c] [4s]
ZEIFER - Checks
BUNTYMCCRUMP - Bets $8
ZEIFER - Calls $8
*** RIVER *** [Ks 2c 5c 4s] [6c]
ZEIFER - All-In $22.85
BUNTYMCCRUMP - ???

Toughts?

[r8ed]

That sux. It think he probably has Ac and some other card and was drawing to the nut flush or to a straight. He's an idiot if he somehow has KK. If you are on TILT this is an easy call...jk. This why I'm not a huge fan of suited connectors. Even when you hit, you can't be sure you have the best hand. Sorry I can't give you a answer because this is a gut call depending on his previous plays.

[Fnord]

Remember to say "thank you" when you call.

BTW, I usually check that turn.

[Rondavu]

This is one of those hands where new cash game players get scared. As per most hold-em decisions, much has to do with your read on a particular player. I know that sounds useless to just say, so I'll put it a different way.

Here's the thing. This is a cash game. The difference between cash game and tournament, is that in cash game you have the luxury of taking into account how "often" a call is right in a particular situation, not just if it's right this time. It's a long term game, and you can't be eliminated from cash game. You want to make good "long term" decisions. Your read on a player is just the major "factor" in your long term decision to call or not.

What are the factors at play here?

Player Specific Read Factors
Does he bet his draws? If so how? Will he chase draws for more money than he should? Does he value bet made hands usually? Does he slowplay when he shouldn't? How aggressive is he? Would he bluff here, or is he so weak tight that it's almost impossible for me to be ahead here?

General Factors
Do people in general normally push all in when they make the nuts? What else could he possibly have that he feels is ahead? A straight would feel ahead here since you concealed your flush draw well. That increases the likeliness that you're ahead.

Based only on general info here I would make the call feeling ahead often enough to be profitable, but you can see how handicapped my advice is without player specific info. It's VERY VERY important for you to gather it. It's VITAL.

[Greedo017]

easy call, don't lay down flushes to higher flushes except in the worst of circumstances.

[lowBoy]

Ron - Agreed on the reads. I was playing a few tables, and there was this douchebag on one of them sitting on my right that had a VP$IP of 85% and a PFR of %45, so I was paying attention to that table the most, as those situations are often quite lucrative. I got $50 off of him by smooth calling a set that turned a full house and then called his ace high bluff on the river.

Based off of what the average player will do when they make flush and deciding that I'm ahead here enough of the time I called. It was actually Greed's Straight Draw post that tipped the scales in my favour and made me think I was ahead here.

[edudlive]

I pay it off everytime, he's probably just repping the flush because he's not going to put you on a flush draw. Most likely I put opp on a set or two pair, or if he's a huge donk...the straight.

[dsaxton]

Easy call.

[Lukie]

Fold preflop. Limping SC's UTG+1 is a leak, that I can be very sure of. Easy call though on the river, pay off the higher flush if that's indeed what he has.

I think you have the best hand.

[Fnord]

Fold preflop. Limping SC's UTG+1 is a leak, that I can be very sure of.

Being second in helps protect him, with no table texture, reads, etc. given I wasn't going to go there and to be quite honest, I don't like talking much about pre-flop unless someone asks or it's horribly butchered.

If the table is playing limp and flop poker and he's beating the crap out of them post-flop in unraised pots, then good for him.

Post-flop is where the money is baby!

[sejje]

I also put him on a bluff here. You repped a made hand, he wanted to push you off if a club hit.

Maybe that's overestimating the competition.

Anyway, I always pay off higher flushes (except obviously the four-flush). To me it's the same as set over set. I didn't draw to a flush to fold it. I didn't limp my pocket pair to fold a set, either.

I think a laydown here requires very strong evidence, a great read, and a much bigger bet in relation to pot size.

[bair]

agree with sejje, dont fold flush over flush

[Zinnsoldaten]

I've seen so many donks doing exactly the same thing with fx KhQd.

[Lukie]

Fold preflop. Limping SC's UTG+1 is a leak, that I can be very sure of.

Being second in helps protect him, with no table texture, reads, etc. given I wasn't going to go there and to be quite honest, I don't like talking much about pre-flop unless someone asks or it's horribly butchered.

If the table is playing limp and flop poker and he's beating the crap out of them post-flop in unraised pots, then good for him.

Post-flop is where the money is baby!

If he is capable of winning pots out of position and without cards, I'm all for it. Generally this is not the case.

If the table is very passive where he can be confident that his limp will not be raised behind, and he can draw cheaply post-flop without position, again, I'm all for it.

I probably shouldn't have brought it up, as it's not the glaring leak that open limping 45s in UTG+1 on an agressive table would be. In general though I avoid playing hands like this out of position (and outside of the SB in a limped pot where the price is too good) whenever possible.

[lowBoy]

I don't play SCs from EP very much, only when the table's been very limpy. Most of the hands on this table were 4+ handed and limped.

If anyone sees a problem with my preflop play in any HH, please bring it up. I can defend my actions, and/or learn something.

[Rondavu]

Fold preflop. Limping SC's UTG+1 is a leak, that I can be very sure of.

Being second in helps protect him, with no table texture, reads, etc. given I wasn't going to go there and to be quite honest, I don't like talking much about pre-flop unless someone asks or it's horribly butchered.

If the table is playing limp and flop poker and he's beating the crap out of them post-flop in unraised pots, then good for him.

Post-flop is where the money is baby!

You wouldn't believe the crap I DON'T fold preflop. Once you aquire postflop skills, you can give away a shit ton of equity preflop. It almost becomes a non factor.

[defhalotones]

Wasnt repping a made hand on the flop your plan? You wanted him to think you had a made hand, but only on a draw. Why play it to the river, hit your flush, then fold? If your gonna create a plan on the flop, you better stick with it when/if it hits. I dunno....Looks to me like he thought the river card was a good scare card, and knew you didnt have the flush. Im thinking he thought his set was good, and didnt put you on flush.

I call this everytime. He prob has TP good kicker, or low set. Take his money. lol

-Jake-

[Pelion]

Wasnt repping a made hand on the flop your plan? You wanted him to think you had a made hand, but only on a draw. Why play it to the river, hit your flush, then fold? If your gonna create a plan on the flop, you better stick with it when/if it hits. I dunno....Looks to me like he thought the river card was a good scare card, and knew you didnt have the flush. Im thinking he thought his set was good, and didnt put you on flush.

I call this everytime. He prob has TP good kicker, or low set. Take his money. lol

-Jake-

Why would he try and scare off a made hand on the river when he was already beating it with a set? That just doesnt make sense. I think its more likely he had a weak made hand (like a single pair of kings) and was trying to scare you off when the flush hit. I dont think he made the nut flush because the overbet is so huge. People tend to make fairly small value bets when they hit the nuts. Even if he does have the flush (and i dont think he does) he has you on a made hand so he thinks he is winning with alot of flushes that are smaller than yours.
I think you have to call

[defhalotones]

flush>set
better read my post one more time man.

[Chicago_Kid]

Call with a capital "C". I can bet my flush draws pretty hard against a couple players, but I'm usually more careful with a lower flush draw.

However, at .25/.5 and other low blinds, donks love this AI steal play, gambling you don't have it. You see this daily...

Maybe he had a 3

[ProZachNation]

The only time to fold a flush without a rock solid read is when theres 4 to a flush on the board and your highest flush card is beat by more than 3 other cards.


At least thats my rule.

[ChrisBCritter]

Almost an instacall!! My bet is that he had K3 Sooted (not clubs though)