Beating crazy play.

[Irisheyes]

This is kinda the same thread as the "How do I bead bad players" one but I want to expand on that a bit and tailor it too my own situation.

I just started playing in a new room and I must say the standard of play is some of the fishiest play I've seen ever, and I cant beat it!!! Grr! I've read the "How do I bead bad players" thread and the advice given over there is the type of strategy I used to beat Royal Vegas Poker when I played there, the same game doesnt seem to be working here so I need to come up with something new.

I moved my roll over from RVP yesterday and the strategy i was using to win over there i'm finding pretty useless in fortune. RVP $10NL was a complete rock-fest compared to this.

TAGGing these tables ain't working like it used to at RVP. I was running at 9ptbb/100 at RVP over 15000 hands over there. My game was rather low varience too so I'm not used to this swingy swingy play. I'm just saying this to show that I know how to TAGG/nut camp if thats whats called for, I'm not trying to boast (its not even worth boasting about).

Also my sample size is small in this new site but most of this is based on general table observations.

Table conditions:

1) No preflop raise means > 8 players to the flop.
This basically means your limped TPTK is actually jack shit.

2) A 15 - 20xbb raise may get called by nobody in one hand and 3 people the hand after.
I cant isolate to protect my hands properly.

3) If you raise preflop you are pretty much playing for your stack in one hand.
eg. Dealt AA, raise to 20bb, 2 callers, pot is $6 with $8 left in your stack. I find if you bet less then pot they call, you push to protect they fold. There is no middle ground.

4) I find it impossible to put people on hands.
eg. One hand I have JJ in LP, raise over approx. 7 limpers to 15x preflop. 2 callers. Flop comes rags and my over pair gets check raised all-in by TPNK! I nearly folded this hand. A few hands later the exact same situation occurs but I loose to a set. I feel like I'm playing blind a lot of the time.

5) Everybody is a calling station.
I've had overpairs busted by a really slow-played (calling station) higher overpair loads of times. But I cant put the opp on a hand reliably enough to fold it. Also by the turn I'm already in for 1/2 my stack so its pretty much push/fold without being able raise etc. to obtain more info. from the opp.

How do I beat this type of game most successfully? Or do I just keep TAGGing away at it and try to deal with the varience?

[dsaxton]

This is kinda the same thread as the "How do I bead bad players" one but I want to expand on that a bit and tailor it too my own situation.

I just started playing in a new room and I must say the standard of play is some of the fishiest play I've seen ever, and I cant beat it!!! Grr! I've read the "How do I bead bad players" thread and the advice given over there is the type of strategy I used to beat Royal Vegas Poker when I played there, the same game doesnt seem to be working here so I need to come up with something new.

I moved my roll over from RVP yesterday and the strategy i was using to win over there i'm finding pretty useless in fortune. RVP $10NL was a complete rock-fest compared to this.

TAGGing these tables ain't working like it used to at RVP. I was running at 9ptbb/100 at RVP over 15000 hands over there. My game was rather low varience too so I'm not used to this swingy swingy play. I'm just saying this to show that I know how to TAGG/nut camp if thats whats called for, I'm not trying to boast (its not even worth boasting about).

Also my sample size is small in this new site but most of this is based on general table observations.

Table conditions:

1) No preflop raise means > 8 players to the flop.
This basically means your limped TPTK is actually jack shit.

2) A 15 - 20xbb raise may get called by nobody in one hand and 3 people the hand after.
I cant isolate to protect my hands properly.

3) If you raise preflop you are pretty much playing for your stack in one hand.
eg. Dealt AA, raise to 20bb, 2 callers, pot is $6 with $8 left in your stack. I find if you bet less then pot they call, you push to protect they fold. There is no middle ground.

4) I find it impossible to put people on hands.
eg. One hand I have JJ in LP, raise over approx. 7 limpers to 15x preflop. 2 callers. Flop comes rags and my over pair gets check raised all-in by TPNK! I nearly folded this hand. A few hands later the exact same situation occurs but I loose to a set. I feel like I'm playing blind a lot of the time.

5) Everybody is a calling station.
I've had overpairs busted by a really slow-played (calling station) higher overpair loads of times. But I cant put the opp on a hand reliably enough to fold it. Also by the turn I'm already in for 1/2 my stack so its pretty much push/fold without being able raise etc. to obtain more info. from the opp.

How do I beat this type of game most successfully? Or do I just keep TAGGing away at it and try to deal with the varience?

This sounds a lot like a No Limit Holdem home game I used to play in. I think you're probably just frustrated because of short-term variance, since I feel that textbook poker is pretty much still profitable in these games. Your opponents are overplaying hands and playing passively with weak hands, which are tendencies which can be exploited easily for profit. Just wait for cards, bet them strong and don't be intimidated when you get a lot of action with a medium-strong hand like an overpair, since you are ahead of the weak hands you expect them to have when they're making strong plays (if they play marginal holdings identically to strong holdings, then they probably have a marginal hand when making strong plays since marginal hands are dealt more often than strong ones).

[m3laNcholy]

Raise to 20BB?!!!??!?

All the points you mention are reasons to crush that game, not be unable to beat it.

[TalentedTom]

If people are calling 20BB preflop at least half the time, then you can safley 12-table-rock play it. By this i mean only opening with AQs-AK-AKs-(TT+). And limping in with small PP's for sets. This is impossible to do in any playing ground I have been to. Cause no-one will call 20xBB with anything under JJ.

[EricE]

I am sure this is just short term frustration. In no time you will figure out how to play here and be happy you did. That game sounds yummy.

Do you have a poker program that will track the trends of you opponents like pokertracker? This could help with post flop decisions. It helps to know what their VP$IP is and how aggressive they are. It can make the difference between a fold and a raise. If you don’t have one, get one.

This also sounds like a game that requires good post flop player. Work on your post flop game. When people can be in the pot with any holdings then you will just have to work out what they have from their betting.

Good Luck.

[Irisheyes]

Raise to 20BB?!!!??!?

All the points you mention are reasons to crush that game, not be unable to beat it.

Yea I realise this, thats why I moved. Its just that the way I was playing at RVP doesn't seem to be working here and I'm looking for advice on what I need to change.

[Irisheyes]

I am sure this is just short term frustration. In no time you will figure out how to play here and be happy you did. That game sounds yummy.

It could possibly be, I'm not sure. Ive only played about 1500 hands here but I'm down about 3.5 buy-ins. It could be varience but I never experienced swingy varience like this at RVP where the play was generally better.

I'm right in thinking that fishy opponents will increace varience yea?

Do you have a poker program that will track the trends of you opponents like pokertracker? This could help with post flop decisions. It helps to know what their VP$IP is and how aggressive they are. It can make the difference between a fold and a raise. If you don’t have one, get one.

I don't have one at the moment but even if I did I don't think it would work with this site. I can't get hand histories. I don't even know how many hands I've played, the 1500 is a guesstimate.

This also sounds like a game that requires good post flop player. Work on your post flop game. When people can be in the pot with any holdings then you will just have to work out what they have from their betting.

Its true this is someting I need to work on along with other things. It's difficult to play post flop when the pot is 45 bb to the flop though. Doesn't really leave much room to manoever (can't spell that).

Good Luck

Thanks for your reply

[Irisheyes]

OK i've played a few more hands on this new site and it looks like most of you were right, it was mostly just variance I was experiencing. It was just a bit unnerving because I was in a new room. I've played about 3000 hands now on a bit of an upswing at 18ptBB/100 so its all good.

I have changed a few things though:

1) My standard raise is 15bb. Usually gets me 0 - 2 callers, most likely 1.

2) Completely stopped semi-bluffing. These guys love to check/min-bet all the way round to the river card. So theres no point.

3) Completely stopped trying to steal pots. Opps love to call to the river.

4) Stopped continuation betting. Yhis was costing me a load of money. Feels a bit weird raising to 15bb then checking behind on the flop when I miss but its the only way. There is 1 or 2 specific people you can c-bet but you need a read.

[r8ed]

I had the same exact experience at pokerroom last night. I lost 3 buyins before realizing I have to hit the nuts on the flop to win a hand.

[Pelion]

This sounds like an ideal Counterplay site to me. I havnt actually tried it yet but from what ive heard it works wonders with these types of players.
Limp with good cards -> make a good hand on the flop -> check/fold
Limp with good cards -> make a great hand on the flop -> push + get called

[DBL0SVN]

Fancy sharing the name of this site? I wouldn't mind a piece of that action

[Miffed22001]

sounds like pokerroom to me

[Vrax]

The first time I applied CTplay for those fishy tables I was sceptical (yeah I know it sounds like tampon commercial), and recently I evaluated my BB/100. It was around 20-30. With counterplay.

Every tactic I balieve has it's main "source of profit". For example TAG game basically gives bad odds to opponents and builds table image of someone who goes to showdown with decent hands and drags big pots in showdown more often than not. If he is pegged as rock, then his c-bets with missed AK can push off slightly better hands (missed sets, SC's that hit only a piece of flop) on the flop with ease. Basically, other "thinking" players noticed that if TAG raises preflop, it's signal "be ready to put all your chips in the middle at any moment because you will pay dearly for seeing every street".

Profitable TAG is also not betting and be AGGRO, it's also laying down those aces when it's no good.

Unfortunately, fishes are too retarded to be scared. Thay are not thinking players and they don't know that the guy who raises preflop is more likely to have a goods and is capable of draining their stack in one hand. (BTW recently I saw a fish that was calling 20BB PFR's 4 hands in a row only to fold on flop if flopped nothing and called if flopped a piece, then went broke after 15 minutes)."That's just 1 buck! I have K2 SOOTD! CALL!". They also think only about their cards, are not afraid of being dominated and don't know the gap concept. They don't shy away from showdown when only flopped a piece. Forget about c-bets.


They all have the love for calling. VERY LOOSE calling that is based ONLY on strength of THEIR hand.

For example:

If they have straight, they will call their entire stack on double paired flush board.

The same with 4flush board and they have Ten in that same suit and see raise and reraise in the front. "CALL! I GOT A FLUSH!"

Also "OMG WTF LOL It's ONLY one card to flush!". They really like to flush their bankroll in order to see those rivers. Why only pot it? Push it baby

That's the beauty of counterplay. Make the hand as cheap as possible. Use some reads (Bet small? 1 pair. Bet bigger? 2 pair. Checkcalls flop, checkcalls turn and fires on suited river? Guess ). It's pretty easy to evaluate if the hand is good even if it's overpair only. Then it takes only the 1 fishy loose call to drag a big pot. We exploit only 1 moment when fish is vulnerable to making mistake, but we AMPLIFY it to the MAX. By really big river bet. It compensates for all the moments of "being ahead and not putting money in". One loose call, when we KNOW our hand is good and there is no further streets that can turn this around.

Conservative, but it's steady 20BB/100.

[Irisheyes]

The first time I applied CTplay for those fishy tables I was sceptical (yeah I know it sounds like tampon commercial), and recently I evaluated my BB/100. It was around 20-30. With counterplay.

I thought about using counterplay but I was reluctant because I have no experience with it. Switching to counterplay would have involved going through the whole noob learning period that comes with learning anything new. I didn't really want to have to do that when I knew I already had a pretty solid TAGG game I could use. I never doubted the efficiency of the counterplay style.

I changed my game up a bit and things are all good now.

[Vrax]

The first time I applied CTplay for those fishy tables I was sceptical (yeah I know it sounds like tampon commercial), and recently I evaluated my BB/100. It was around 20-30. With counterplay.

I thought about using counterplay but I was reluctant because I have no experience with it. Switching to counterplay would have involved going through the whole noob learning period that comes with learning anything new. I didn't really want to have to do that when I knew I already had a pretty solid TAGG game I could use. I never doubted the efficiency of the counterplay style.

I changed my game up a bit and things are all good now.

Yes, it feels "very weaktight" in the beginning, folding AA after failed LRR against 7 players and crazy betting going Limping QQ in MP? Tempting to use that slider preflop

IrishEyes, I saw you pwning Sportingbet tables with TAG play, it's the way to go... GG and NH's

[Irisheyes]

The first time I applied CTplay for those fishy tables I was sceptical (yeah I know it sounds like tampon commercial), and recently I evaluated my BB/100. It was around 20-30. With counterplay.

I thought about using counterplay but I was reluctant because I have no experience with it. Switching to counterplay would have involved going through the whole noob learning period that comes with learning anything new. I didn't really want to have to do that when I knew I already had a pretty solid TAGG game I could use. I never doubted the efficiency of the counterplay style.

I changed my game up a bit and things are all good now.

Yes, it feels "very weaktight" in the beginning, folding AA after failed LRR against 7 players and crazy betting going Limping QQ in MP? Tempting to use that slider preflop

IrishEyes, I saw you pwning Sportingbet tables with TAG play, it's the way to go... GG and NH's

ty, we'll clean the place out between us!

{This post has been removed}

[Fnord]

standard raise 15X ?? lmao

Exactly. Open up and stop playing pre-flop poker with these bozos.

Play a wide range on the button cheap, build pots with cards that can make good hands and stack them.

People will give me crap for raising just about anything at 3x or sometimes 4x instead of the established TAgg 3-4 + 1 per limper. However, do the math and with deep money you CAN'T protect any marginal edges pre-flop. My goal is to build a pot big enough for them to hang themselves and keep the hopeless hands in the pot. If K4o really wants to play out of the big blind, then god bless him. I'm certainly not doing myself a favor by trying to blow him off the hand pre-flop.

If they are truely terrible, throw balance out the door. Jam the pot hard with AA/KK, bet big with your best hands, bet small (blocking bets) with mediocre hands and perhaps a draw here and there to price yourself in. Screw deception, just value play until they catch on (if ever.)

Sure, you could just play AA-22 and maybe AK if you're feeling frisky and beat this game. But that's not the way to beat it for the max. The really horrible mistakes are made post-flop.

{This post has been removed}

[Fnord]

I think you misread my post. I agree that opening for 15x with a narrow range is a poor knee-jerk reaction.

What I'm getting at is stop protecting marginal hands pre-flop, build pots and stack people.

{This post has been removed}

[Fnord]

I've also seen you open for 5x a lot as well.

I suspect a bigger opener works well for you because you're willing to fire multiple barrels and put people to the test more often and take it down w/o showdown. You're probably murder to bad players who who will peel and won't commit. Hence, it's in your best interest to get money in pre-flop and shut people out because you're going to win more than your fair share.

While I certainly steal my fair share, I'm more about building enough of a pot to bait others into horrible calls and using a little aggression to discourage weak players from playing back at me.

[Irisheyes]

standard raise 15X ?? lmao

Exactly. Open up and stop playing pre-flop poker with these bozos.

Play a wide range on the button cheap, build pots with cards that can make good hands and stack them.

People will give me crap for raising just about anything at 3x or sometimes 4x instead of the established TAgg 3-4 + 1 per limper. However, do the math and with deep money you CAN'T protect any marginal edges pre-flop. My goal is to build a pot big enough for them to hang themselves and keep the hopeless hands in the pot. If K4o really wants to play out of the big blind, then god bless him. I'm certainly not doing myself a favor by trying to blow him off the hand pre-flop.

I'm not sure if I full understand this. I can raise 4bb on the button and if there was 6 limpers before my raise there will still be 5 or more who call my raise to the flop. So I'm sitting there with a possibly more marginal holding them I'm used to and a 24bb pot with 5 opps. Am I right in thinking your saying I should be looking for these situations and 2 pair or better to stack someone with when they call me to the river with crap?

How marginal a hand are you prepared to go to the flop with?

If they are truely terrible, throw balance out the door. Jam the pot hard with AA/KK, bet big with your best hands, bet small (blocking bets) with mediocre hands and perhaps a draw here and there to price yourself in. Screw deception, just value play until they catch on (if ever.)

Sure, you could just play AA-22 and maybe AK if you're feeling frisky and beat this game. But that's not the way to beat it for the max. The really horrible mistakes are made post-flop.

This is what I'm doing at the moment (nearly, I'll play down to QJ) for approx 15ptBB/100.

[Irisheyes]

well Fnord you can at my NL table anytime...Id love to see a 15X raise in front of me when I am holding rockets or cowboys...you know you're getting paid off 90% of the time if you push over the top. You tellin me you raise 15X anytime you come into a pot....with 9/9 and A/K etc ? bad idea in the long run IMO....overbetters tend to get hung out to dry in the no limit arena and especially heads up.

All I raise is JJ and up, AK and AQ. If I get reraised I'm more then happy to fold my AK (after taking other things into account) because I know these passive players will only reraise when they see rockets (give or take). I am getting burned a bit by people smooth calling all the way down with overpairs to my JJ/QQ overpair though, and AK to my AQ.

I'll stick to my standard 4X if I am FTA

As long as you understand it will be a pot building exercise only.

[Fnord]

No Limit Hold'em with over 50bb stacks is a POST-flop game.

If you want to play pre-flop No-limit poker, fire up SnGs and study ICM. With enough practice you too can make 5% ROI playing the 100s.

[Irisheyes]

No Limit Hold'em with over 50bb stacks is a POST-flop game.

If you want to play pre-flop No-limit poker, fire up SnGs and study ICM. With enough practice you too can make 5% ROI playing the 100s.

No thanks, guess I'll just go and learn some post-flop poker then huh. Easy as.

[Fnord]

How marginal a hand are you prepared to go to the flop with?

Any pair
AK
AQs+/AJs+/KJs+
Once I'm in position:
Any suited ace
Any suited broadways
Any suited connectorish crap
AT+/KT+/QT+/JT+

I'd build a lot of pots, draw against their stupid bets with impunity and stack them when I hit.

[Vrax]

Sure, you could just play AA-22 and maybe AK if you're feeling frisky and beat this game. But that's not the way to beat it for the max. The really horrible mistakes are made post-flop.

What are "playable" hands in late position against limpers with J6os utg crap?

I play in late position:
- all suited connectors down to 9T
- offsuit broadway down to KJ
- Axs with lots of limpers (for two pairs, nut flushes, wheels),

But I don't built the pot preflop with that cause they hit rarely (by "hitting" i mean top two or better or OESD/FD) and I assume if I hit my nut straight or something, I will get paid off from all players that play their substandard hands and they hit only a TPNK or baby flush draw.

Fnord, you said you like to build the pot preflop in case you flop the big hand and the bigger pot will entice bigger calls. What are your "pot building" starting hands in late position?

Pocket pairs? big offsuit cards? suited broadway? I see this working with small/middle pocket pairs because it turns into lock 12% of the time...

edit: I guess I got my answer even before finishing my question. ty.

[DogOnMySide]

I'm playing a site where some of the play is a lot like that, especially at the lowest levels. Check out this bizarre hand for proof:

Silentz was dealt: Jh - Js

KurreKnall Call (0,20)
mankeboy Call (0,20)
Silentz Raise (1,00)
Cissi85 Fold
jealen Fold
neverlose Call (0,90)
iluminated Fold
KurreKnall Raise (1,60)
mankeboy Call (1,60)
Silentz All-In (18,30)
neverlose Fold
KurreKnall All-In (14,48)
mankeboy All-In (5,61)
Silentz Payback (3,02)

What do you reckon they had?





KurreKnall shows: Qs - Td (a pair of fours)
Silentz shows: Jh - Js (a full house, jacks full of fours)
mankeboy shows: 5c - Ac (a straight, five high)

Yep, one re-raises me then calls off his stack with QTo, the other just calls all in with A5s. Nice. Plenty of suckout potential though.

Might give this counterplay idea a go, as I find it VERY swingy playing TAGG... i know what you mean about preflop raises - i've tried 4xBB and 5xBB - it just has no effect on who calls you.

Yesterday I sat with someone with a VP$IP of 90.48%. Small sample but he managed 106 BB/100. Cant wait to meet him again.

The weirdest play is when someone flops the nuts, and then MINBETS me 0.2c on every street to the river. When i turn over my middle pair, and they have the nut straight, i'm like...

[Irisheyes]

What are your "pot building" starting hands in late position? Pocket pairs?

Ok Vrax, you play my tables. What do you think of raising 4xbb in position with any pp. You will get all limpers to the flop right? Still playing for sets but this way you have a bigger pot to use to commit people when you hit your set.

[Fnord]

Ok Vrax, you play my tables. What do you think of raising 4xbb in position with any pp. You will get all limpers to the flop right? Still playing for sets but this way you have a bigger pot to use to commit people when you hit your set.

Yup, although you need to consider the retardation factor. If they'll pay off in unraised pots then limping is better. Maybe it's just me and the games I play in, but I have trouble getting loose calls and weaker hands committed in unraised pots. Raise it up and suddenly KJo starts peeling on the flop and god-knows-what decides to play back at you with some absurd over-bet. The other parts of this play I like is that you'll screw with people who actually try to put you on a hand and quite often you'll get a free turn card.

[Vrax]

What are your "pot building" starting hands in late position? Pocket pairs?

Ok Vrax, you play my tables. What do you think of raising 4xbb in position with any pp. You will get all limpers to the flop right? Still playing for sets but this way you have a bigger pot to use to commit people when you hit your set.

Pocket pairs are the simplest deal. Bump it, on flop pump it or dump it.

But I was also thinking about bumping more holdings like KQs, JTs, QJs etc. If 60-70% of the table calls 3BB raise, the pot will be HUGE and nobody who made top pair or bottom two would have the ballz to pot it on flop. That means cheap draws and very easy pot committing of shortstacks...I guess THAT was Fnord's idea of tripling/quadrupling multiway pot with drawing hand...Is is right, Fnord?

The other plus of this is "someone will get sick of this raising and reraise", THEN we can reraise huge with AA/KK and even can triple up in process.

[Rabid Dog]

I've played Fortune for about a month and what Irisheyes says is totally true. I've had to start playing the counterplay strategy because these guys seem to call anything and it was getting expensive.

ex: I had AA, pot was checked around to me so I bet $3 (.05/.10). Had one caller raise me to $5, so naturally I pushed all in for $12. He threw his last $5 in, we go to a one on one showdown. He shows 72s, I show AA feeling really good. Flop comes 277 and I loose to a full house. Turn and River were nothing.

These are the kind of players you see at Fortune, they place a very high value on suited pocket cards, doesnt matter what the numerical value of the cards are, if they are suited they are gold.

I switched to counterplay and losses are smaller, but pots are still decent size when I win since these guys almost always call down to the river. This was at the .05/.10 games mind you. I'm not sure what it is like higher than that because most of my play has been at the $10+1 sng's.

[underminedsk]

What are your "pot building" starting hands in late position? Pocket pairs?

Ok Vrax, you play my tables. What do you think of raising 4xbb in position with any pp. You will get all limpers to the flop right? Still playing for sets but this way you have a bigger pot to use to commit people when you hit your set.

Pocket pairs are the simplest deal. Bump it, on flop pump it or dump it.

But I was also thinking about bumping more holdings like KQs, JTs, QJs etc. If 60-70% of the table calls 3BB raise, the pot will be HUGE and nobody who made top pair or bottom two would have the ballz to pot it on flop. That means cheap draws and very easy pot committing of shortstacks...I guess THAT was Fnord's idea of tripling/quadrupling multiway pot with drawing hand...Is is right, Fnord?

The other plus of this is "someone will get sick of this raising and reraise", THEN we can reraise huge with AA/KK and even can triple up in process.

Interesting strategy. I have been doing pot buffing raises (2-3xbb) from position in large multiway pots with pocket pocket pairs to make it easier to destack when I flop a set. Id be interested to hear if doing the same thing with drawing hands is also more profitable. I know for a fact that I get queasy when I flop tptk and a 2/3rd pot bet is >20xbb..

[Irisheyes]

Ok Vrax, you play my tables. What do you think of raising 4xbb in position with any pp. You will get all limpers to the flop right? Still playing for sets but this way you have a bigger pot to use to commit people when you hit your set.

Yup, although you need to consider the retardation factor. If they'll pay off in unraised pots then limping is better. Maybe it's just me and the games I play in, but I have trouble getting loose calls and weaker hands committed in unraised pots.

I don't think I have this trouble enough to warrant employing this strategy yet. This is definitly making me think though. What you think Vrax is it worth it?

[Irisheyes]

But I was also thinking about bumping more holdings like KQs, JTs, QJs etc. If 60-70% of the table calls 3BB raise, the pot will be HUGE and nobody who made top pair or bottom two would have the ballz to pot it on flop. That means cheap draws and very easy pot committing of shortstacks...I guess THAT was Fnord's idea of tripling/quadrupling multiway pot with drawing hand...Is is right, Fnord?

I think I'm gonna try working this into my game for a while, see what happens. Maybe not with hands as weak as JTs and QJs because I want to be able to play my TPGK pretty strongly too.

The other plus of this is "someone will get sick of this raising and reraise", THEN we can reraise huge with AA/KK and even can triple up in process.

I'm not so sure how often this will happen. Players are very passive remember.

What about the fact that your AA/KK raise (presuming you want to make one) will need to be bigger then your pot building raise in order to achieve any sort of isolation?

[Fnord]

What about the fact that your AA/KK raise (presuming you want to make one) will need to be bigger then your pot building raise in order to achieve any sort of isolation?

Isolation is poor word choice. Protection is a better one. You want as much of the effective stack in as possible pre-flop.

[aleksandr]

Another good thing to know is how your hands hold up in multiway pots. TPTK is rough 4-way.

The easy way to get an estimate of what the best hand you're facing probably is is to hit up Pyroxene's sticky. If something is a 25% chance for one player to do it, the odds of 3 other guys NOT doing it are 1 - (75% * 75% * 75%) approximately.

Apply this to figuring if your TPTK is good:
flopping EXACTLY two pair by pairing EACH of your hole cards 2.02%
flopping EXACTLY trips by flopping two cards to one hole card 1.347%

Add e'm up and get 3.37%.

Add that to the fact that 1/2 the time you're up against a pocket pair, and they'll damn near always see the flop in loose games, so 50% times
flopping EXACTLY trips by flopping a set for your pocket pair 10.775%

So about 8.8% of the time against 1 opponent your TPTK is probably not good. Now, against 4 opponents, this changes to 1 - (91.2 ^ 4) = 30.8% of the time your TPTK is countefeit. Overpairs and draw calling fish start to make this hand very scary, and definately shouldn't be played on any kind of coordinated board. Even a fish can take your money with a better hand.

[m3laNcholy]

My roommate has NEVER read a poker book in his life, has NEVER joined or read any post in any poker forum, has NEVER played texas holdem in his life.He has just watched me play a couple of times and asked a few things.

He started playing at $10NL at Fortune a month ago and is already 40 buy ins up... now moving to $25NL.

How can you NOT beat that game?

[Irisheyes]

My roommate has NEVER read a poker book in his life, has NEVER joined or read any post in any poker forum, has NEVER played texas holdem in his life.He has just watched me play a couple of times and asked a few things.

He started playing at $10NL at Fortune a month ago and is already 40 buy ins up... now moving to $25NL.

How can you NOT beat that game?

I'm not sure if this is rethorical or even directly at me but anyway..

OK i've played a few more hands on this new site and it looks like most of you were right, it was mostly just variance I was experiencing. It was just a bit unnerving because I was in a new room. I've played about 3000 hands now on a bit of an upswing at 18ptBB/100 so its all good.

Don't get me wrong this game is VERY easy to beat. I've been playing there just about 3 weeks now and I've made nearly $600 (which is good for me). I want to learn how to beat it for the MAX though.

[m3laNcholy]

Just my point exactly.This game is so easy to beat. You dont need to beat 10NL "for the max".10NL is not where you are supposed to make money.
I think playing $10NL is something "that you have to do" when staring out at poker. Something like a transition period before moving to the higher limits ( I was at $10 NL 6 months ago). Seeing a thread that long on how to beat this game just seemed a bit aqward to me thats all.

Didnt mean to offend you in any way.

Take care.

[Irisheyes]

Just my point exactly.This game is so easy to beat. You dont need to beat 10NL "for the max".10NL is not where you are supposed to make money.
I think playing $10NL is something "that you have to do" when staring out at poker. Something like a transition period before moving to the higher limits ( I was at $10 NL 6 months ago). Seeing a thread that long on how to beat this game just seemed a bit aqward to me thats all.

Didnt mean to offend you in any way.

Take care.

I agree thatit is something you 'have to do', I believe it would be good for any player if they started at 10NL. And your right there is no need to beat it for the max but I also think that the more I learn at the lower stakes the more I'll know at the higher stakes. If I learn a reason for making a particular type of play at a low stake game I can translate those reasons inot more complicated plays at higher levels. I'm not offended in the least by the way.

You take care too.

[Pingviini]

No Limit Hold'em with over 50bb stacks is a POST-flop game.

If you want to play pre-flop No-limit poker, fire up SnGs and study ICM. With enough practice you too can make 5% ROI playing the 100s.

This is something I am working on myself. I still try to play too much PF poker with 100+BB stacks in SH ring. doesnt really work and I have been killed by some loose guys who I think suck PF but are descent post flop, those bastards just dont believe me when I am repping something

good point Fnordy

[Irisheyes]

Here you go Fnord, you proud!?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hand #143164989 at table: Table TH Mini
Started: Wed Nov 30 19:52:48 2005

TomHagen is at seat 1 with 10.50
tapadillo is at seat 2 with 15.25
bilybluff is at seat 3 with 7.47
portabales is at seat 4 with 28.05
PHOWOM is at seat 5 with 8.06
sjetong is at seat 6 with 28.57
sanfandila is at seat 7 with 3.50
t.r.k is at seat 8 with 18.30
Money4Drug is at seat 9 with 41.79
Grant Hill is at seat 10 with 24.63

TomHagen posts the large blind 0.25
Grant Hill posts the small blind 0.12


Money4Drug: Qs, Kd

Pre-flop:

tapadillo: Call 0.25
bilybluff: Call 0.25
portabales: Call 0.25
PHOWOM: Call 0.25
sjetong: Fold
sanfandila: Call 0.25
t.r.k: Call 0.25
Money4Drug: Raise 1.00
Grant Hill: Call 1.00
TomHagen: Fold
tapadillo: Call 1.00
bilybluff: Call 1.00
portabales: Call 1.00
PHOWOM: Call 1.00
sanfandila: Call 1.00
t.r.k: Fold

Flop (Board: Ks, 9d, 4d):
Pot: $7.25

Grant Hill: Check
tapadillo: Check
bilybluff: Bet 0.25
portabales: Fold
PHOWOM: Fold
sanfandila: Call 0.25
Money4Drug: Raise 3.50
Grant Hill: Fold
tapadillo: Call 3.50
bilybluff: Fold
sanfandila: Fold

Turn (Board: Ks, 9d, 4d, Jd):
Pot: $14.25

tapadillo: Check
Money4Drug: Bet 3.50
tapadillo: Fold

Money4Drug wins the pot of 14.25 by default

[Fnord]

Ni Han.