River bet?

[TalentedTom]

I hardley ever value bet but this guy seemed so scared. I notice these days a lot of people min raising or just 3x with absolute monsters cause they want action I felt he had a strong hand, but I didn't know how much I could get away with, I also hated how the river came another spade + board paid ( not scare cards to me, im 90% sure i got it ) but against random hands this may be scary
The problem here was that I was out of position, so I felt I had to reraise the turn cause the pot was not growing fast enough.
Anyone play this different?

PokerStars Game #3128241355: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2005/11/22 - 15:19:00 (ET)
Table 'Michel' Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: skuggan79 ($97.25 in chips)
Seat 2: Fumanchu70 ($153.85 in chips)
Seat 3: buckeye12 ($57.45 in chips)
Seat 4: TalentedTom ($324 in chips)
Seat 5: 24 is King ($36.85 in chips)
Seat 6: high2005 ($152.70 in chips)
Seat 7: DemolishIT ($54.40 in chips)
Seat 8: LTender ($163.05 in chips)
Seat 9: killa gabe ($20.30 in chips)
skuggan79: posts small blind $0.50
Fumanchu70: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TalentedTom [9c 7c]
buckeye12: folds
TalentedTom: calls $1
24 is King: folds
high2005: raises $2 to $3
DemolishIT: folds
LTender: folds
killa gabe: folds
skuggan79: folds
Fumanchu70: folds
TalentedTom: calls $2
*** FLOP *** [Jd 8s 5h]
TalentedTom: checks
high2005: bets $5
TalentedTom: calls $5
*** TURN *** [Jd 8s 5h] [6s]
TalentedTom: checks
high2005: bets $10
TalentedTom: raises $12 to $22
high2005: calls $12
*** RIVER *** [Jd 8s 5h 6s] [5s]
TalentedTom: bets $23
high2005: calls $23


*** SHOW DOWN ***
TalentedTom: shows [9c 7c] (a straight, Five to Nine)
high2005: mucks hand
TalentedTom collected $104.50 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $107.50 | Rake $3
Board [Jd 8s 5h 6s 5s]
Seat 1: skuggan79 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: Fumanchu70 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: buckeye12 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: TalentedTom showed [9c 7c] and won ($104.50) with a straight, Five to Nine
Seat 5: 24 is King folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: high2005 mucked [Kd Kh]
Seat 7: DemolishIT folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: LTender folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: killa gabe (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

[KoRnholio]

Looks good

[ender555]

i might raise to 30-35 on the turn, and then bet about 40 on the riv but that's just me. most players can't laydown overpairs at this level, and with him betting the turn as well you can figure him for at least top pair.

[DogOnMySide]

That's one of the Double Belly-Busters that Doyle goes on about in SS as representing an excellent chance to break someone. Well played.

They don't come along that often, mind!

I'd have been nervous about losing him on the turn re-raise but... I think I often underestimate how much people will call.

[DaHorror]

Question - is this a proper call on the flop?
You are chasing no doubt - and I guess the end result that you got paid probably gave you odds (the double inside straight draw tends to get paid off so I can see the implied odds there if that was your thinking)...but on the flop call, according to pokertips:

8 outs / Bet: $5 / Pot: $7.5

17% chance to turn an out

To justify calling $5:
the pot must be $24.38

For a pot of $7.5:
the max you can call is $1.54

Let's say a K hits on the turn instead of completing the double-belly buster for you. How much are you willing to call to chase there?

[DogOnMySide]

I don't want to detract from the question above so please read it, its good

I just also want to ask why you say "I hardley ever value bet"

Do you mean you usually bet to win the pot right there?

[sejje]

I think he meant bet weakly. He's usually betting a lot more.

I do the same. Often you don't get calls, but the calls you get are nice ones.

I've been value-betting more these days, though.

[TalentedTom]

Mr. DaHorror, no limit is about implied odds, to be honest I rather have him bet pot sized bets because if i hits I will take his whole stack, considering I had $323 and he had $154, I had 14:1 implied odds. On the flop, but since his turn bet was weak, i was forced to bet for value ;/ which is something I normally don't do. I play for stacks whenever i can.

The thing baout my "value bet on the river, is because from his point of view the board is now scary, there are 3 flush cards, there is a pair, not very attractive stuff, and it was very clear to me he had an overpair. Had he done another pot sized bet on the turn I woulda stacked him for sure, I woulda even called a pot sized bet because now I know for sure he is going all in on the next card, the implied odds are too juicy

Limit is more mathematical because you can only win a fixed amount of bets, no limit always think in terms of implied odds.

If you are interested in my general style you can check out how I play a few of my hands here : http://www.pokerhand.org/index.php?p...er=TalentedTom

Take care.

[r8ed]

Mr. DaHorror, no limit is about implied odds, to be honest I rather have him bet pot sized bets because if i hits I will take his whole stack, considering I had $323 and he had $154, I had 14:1 implied odds. On the flop, but since his turn bet was weak, i was forced to bet for value ;/ which is something I normally don't do. I play for stacks whenever i can.

The thing baout my "value bet on the river, is because from his point of view the board is now scary, there are 3 flush cards, there is a pair, not very attractive stuff, and it was very clear to me he had an overpair. Had he done another pot sized bet on the turn I woulda stacked him for sure, I woulda even called a pot sized bet because now I know for sure he is going all in on the next card, the implied odds are too juicy

Limit is more mathematical because you can only win a fixed amount of bets, no limit always think in terms of implied odds.

If you are interested in my general style you can check out how I play a few of my hands here : http://www.pokerhand.org/index.php?p...er=TalentedTom

Take care.

Checked out your hands. You must be like Tweak on South Park - stressed out. There is some huge variance associated with your game which would put many people on tilt. I guess if you are used to it...but I see you getting people to commit chips when you continually push the envelope too. You must hit some huge swings up and down.

[TalentedTom]

Mr. DaHorror, no limit is about implied odds, to be honest I rather have him bet pot sized bets because if i hits I will take his whole stack, considering I had $323 and he had $154, I had 14:1 implied odds. On the flop, but since his turn bet was weak, i was forced to bet for value ;/ which is something I normally don't do. I play for stacks whenever i can.

The thing baout my "value bet on the river, is because from his point of view the board is now scary, there are 3 flush cards, there is a pair, not very attractive stuff, and it was very clear to me he had an overpair. Had he done another pot sized bet on the turn I woulda stacked him for sure, I woulda even called a pot sized bet because now I know for sure he is going all in on the next card, the implied odds are too juicy

Limit is more mathematical because you can only win a fixed amount of bets, no limit always think in terms of implied odds.

If you are interested in my general style you can check out how I play a few of my hands here : http://www.pokerhand.org/index.php?p...er=TalentedTom

Take care.

Checked out your hands. You must be like Tweak on South Park - stressed out. There is some huge variance associated with your game which would put many people on tilt. I guess if you are used to it...but I see you getting people to commit chips when you continually push the envelope too. You must hit some huge swings up and down.

Yeah If you look, most of them are played within 1 day within 3 hours of eachother, i get my money in with the best of it the majority of the time, but when i begin taking bad beats, things get very nasty very fast... (something I recently got used to) But on the other hand when im runnin good I make a ton of loot.

[Fnord]

Tom plays g00t

[r8ed]

The thing is - the hands you posted are all the same. You are either putting tons of money in when on a draw or putting tons of money against a draw. You can't blame your opponents for their play on these hands. I like the aggressive play and manipulation though. You are basically running the table.

I love the "Don't steal my button" comment. lmao

[DaHorror]

Thanks for the reply Tom.
I have read plenty of threads from you (and took a look at the hands you passed along in this thread), and don't dispute your play. I also do not wish to in any way imply that you are not a good player.

I'm looking for improving my education with regard to odds here.

Normally, unless there are multiple people in the hand calling or the bet amounts are in range, I am laying down flush and straight draws when the pot odds are wrong.
(Disregard the statement I just made if I have a double belly-buster because those have much higher implied odds of being paid off for stacks in general, particularly vs. overaggressive opponents).

The people who chase their flushes and straights for improper pot odds amounts (granted sometimes they have proper implied odds to chase) are often the people who pay off my made hands.

Maybe it's just a style thing as perhaps you prefer to chase more than I am willing to (probably because I am a puss about the variance and it is guaranteed that I will miss more than I will hit).

I am curious as to where you derive the 14:1 implied odds number from?

Thanks again for the reply!

[TalentedTom]

Seat 6: high2005 ($152.70 in chips)
Seat 4: TalentedTom ($324 in chips)

The question I always ask myself when I play is how much money I can win if I hit a draw, not how much it's costing me to call.
Compare my stack size to his, had he continued to show a ton of power on the turn, it's more than likley I would be calling whatever amount he is throwing at me for a chance to win his entire stack, that is why I perfer he raises very aggresivley rather than passivley.
I don't care if he even bet $20 into a $10 pot, in fact I perfer that because now I know for sure that if i hit my straight im taking all of his cash, this is an important aspect of NL.

Limit is a mathematical game because you can only win a fixed amount of bets, so if you are not getting a correct price you just laydown, no problem, but NL cashgames are all about implied odds.

The thing you said about the double belly buster having larder implied odds, this may be true at higher stakes, but I think as long as you are chasing a deceptive draw then its good.

Even something like 67 on a 58K flop is a good draw to chase because the majority of players will not detect you have completed a straight when the 4 of nine falls.
The worst thing you can do is call with a hand like 84 on a 679 flop, your draw has no deception value and should be folded if you are out of position, this also is true for flush draws. Most people are skeptical after that third flush card hits, while flush draws have more outs then straight draws, their implied value is much smaller and should not be chased to the same extent.

The thing about style, my style is a very aggresive one, i don't know weather or not I am tight or loose, i just pick situations which i feel have good exected value. Sometimes in a table I play as little as 20% of the hands or as much as high 30's.
But yeah, I go through a ton of varience :/ especially when people are sucking out consistantly after I put them all in.

[DaHorror]

Ok - I see your point. And I agree that chasing a deceptive draw like the case in point, and the example you provided are much more likely to be paid off and so give you more implied odds to chase.

I'm glad you mentioned the flush and obvious straight draws as well, as those tend not to get very large calls after they hit.

So the particular draw in this thread didn't work out quite as well because the guy tightened up a notch on the turn (was probably worried about you have 2 pair/trips or somesuch) so he wasn't a likely player to double-up against.
But in general this hand would have paid off plenty and is worth chasing.

Thanks a ton for taking the time to enlighten me on the implied odds part of the discussion - that's what I was most curious about here.

Horror

[BankItDrew]

Well played Tom. Nice checkraise.
I wouldn't have been in that hand myself...