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Okay, here was my thought process during the hand. Like I said in my first post, villian here is a solid thinking player, and is probably aware that I am as well. On the flop I bet out $10 into a $16 pot, which is pretty standard for me. Now he CR's to $25. I figure his range here is somewhat wide, Tx/88/J9/pocket pair/possibly air. I am 99% sure he doesn't have AA. So I can either reraise, fold, or call. If I raise, I would probably make it $60 to go, which is definitely an option, but hear me out. I figure folding is not an option. Calling the CR pretty much tells villian I have a made hand, most likely an overpair. He knows I'm not a calling station and that I wouldn't play AK this way. Therefore I really think that calling the CR versus 3-betting is sending villian the same info (that I have an overpair). When he bets the turn like that I really can't see anything I'm ahead of besides a total bluff. He didn't seem like the type of player to make huge bluffs or continued semibluffs out of position, but if he was making a move then I tip my hat.
Also, I don't understand why you think his hand rage is so narrow here. He has lots of implied odds seeing how deep the stacks are, plus a horrid calling station that will stack off with TPNK and never fold a draw. I think Tx/J9 is definitely in his range here. And how can you say that his fastplay doesn't indicate a big hand? That's ridiculous unless you have seen him in a similar situation. Given the stack sizes, his turn bet leaves him with about $90 on the river, a perfect amount for a river push in relation the pot size. This is in hopes that I won't be able to let go of AA/KK here. Thoughts?
1. Check-raising that flop is standard if you are a AK/AQ etc c-bettor. Id make it too and then hammer the turn and see if you really like you're hand. Id also do it with any two cards but position suggets something predictable Axs/PP or other stuff. Does this guy limp J9s for example opr does he raise? So opps play is not particularly surprising, considering he called UTG preflop and your tendancy to c-bet.
2. Dont agree Tx utg is playable as a limp here despite big stacks, but open to discussion.
3. Yes you call the flop. That doesnt MEAN you have a big overpair and that he knows it. Its a possible option certainly. Consider it this way. You make standard preflop raise and standard c-bet. Opp decides youre c-betting, raises you and you just call. Opp considers any two are enough to push you around here. Your play doesnt tell him you have an overpair it tells him you've cold called his check raise. Maybe you think ace high is good here? maybe you have an overpair? Maybe you just think hes making a play and want to see how the turn develops? Thus he then pumps a big turn bet in knowing from your flop play that you dont like the way this pot has developed or else you wouldnt have called on the flop (except if you have a complete monster) Therefore his turn play is predictable, despite whateva cards he has. Your cards are being played here imo. If i'd have called that check raise on the flop if would have been with the intention of raising the turn and deciding just how strong opps hand is here, not folding because he pumps a lot of money into the pot after seeing how tamely (it appears) you played the flop.
A thinking player here knows not only that you are suggesting an overpair by your flop play but also that you are being very weak in playing this hand and that aggression may just very well push you off a decent sized pot.
4. i didnt say he wouldnt play Tx so fast i said i thought it unlikely UNLESS he was good enough to put you on a big overpair and he had you real beat here. Hence the turn is odd. Why bet so much unless he thinks you get too attachedto big pairs? (do you?) or else why fire so big into a pot with the nuts. He wants you to stay in and not to be frightened off with a hand that may very well pay him now you called the check raise on the flop.
5. i just feel that the turn makes no sense unless he is making a play with nothing or a weaker hand (pp) or he puts you on the Ten and he has 88. The alternative is that opp thinks you get far too attached to overpairs (which from your posts i dont think you do!) and has decided to make you pay, but again that makes no sense.
Someone mentioned you should reraise on the flop. I think this is a terrible play, as all it does is cause you to lose more money to a 10 or 8-8.
The line this player is executing doesn't really make any sense. I can't think of why he would play a 10 like this (particularly on the turn), but I'm also not sure what other hands he would play like this. Perhaps he check-raised the flop with a middle pair or similar hand, and then after realizing on the flop that you probably had a higher pair, decided to try to move you off your hand with a massive turn bet. This is just a guess.
I agree with all of this. Although i think play on the flop should give you enough information to get away from 88 or Tx imo.
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KK under pressure (semi-deep stacks)
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Originally Posted by dsaxton
