Anticipating donkdom...

[Renton]

This is the third time today someone has called my big preflop raise with suited crap.

Is doing this a donkey strategy that I should anticipate it if the flop is suited and he bets big?

***** Hand History for Game 3536346136 *****
$25 NL Texas Hold'em - Saturday, February 11, 18:36:15 ET 2006
Table Table 65447 (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: andrelis004 ( $42.56 )
Seat 3: mhario ( $12.25 )
Seat 6: derdoy ( $48.92 )
Seat 9: marc16111 ( $46.17 )
Seat 10: Haka_ ( $28.83 )
Seat 4: Renton555 ( $24.05 )
Seat 7: moes7656 ( $41.30 )
Seat 8: PugNana ( $5 )
Seat 2: kanousebe ( $25 )
derdoy posts small blind [$0.10].
moes7656 posts big blind [$0.25].
kanousebe posts big blind [$0.25].
mhario posts big blind + dead [$0.35].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Renton555 [ Ac Ah ]
marc16111 folds.
Haka_ calls [$0.25].
>You have options at Table 66316 Table!.
andrelis004 calls [$0.25].
kanousebe checks.
mhario checks.
Renton555 raises [$1.50].
derdoy folds.
moes7656 folds.
Haka_ folds.
andrelis004 folds.
kanousebe folds.
>You have options at Table 65252 Table!.
mhario calls [$1.25].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 7s, 3d, 6s ]
mhario checks.
>You have options at Table 66171 Table!.
Renton555 bets [$3].
mhario calls [$3].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5s ]
mhario checks.
Renton555 checks.
** Dealing River ** [ 2d ]
mhario is all-In [$7.65]
Renton555 calls [$7.65].
mhario shows [ Qh, 4h ] a straight, three to seven.
Renton555 shows [ Ac, Ah ] a pair of aces.
mhario wins $24.25 from the main pot with a straight, three to seven.
>You have options at Table 66316 Table!.

[Jimmy Mac]

mhario posts big blind + dead [$0.35].
mhario checks.
Renton555 raises [$1.50].
mhario calls [$1.25].

lol, he was defending his newbie blind. Tough hand - his stack is quite short, so it's hard to get away from. The turn really sucks and betting it commits you.

[Chicago_Kid]

Chances are you will get that money back.

[Renton]

And now for another edition of Antipating Donkdom...


Should I have played this one faster and bet more? He just kept calling me with an underpair, and hit is two outer on the river.

Should I anticipate dumbass plays like this?

***** Hand History for Game 3548656333 *****
$25 NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, February 13, 17:21:19 ET 2006
Table Table 65670 (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: jose305 ( $24.23 )
Seat 2: HMerlino ( $58.53 )
Seat 3: Tiffany82311 ( $25 )
Seat 4: RoyleAxe ( $48.66 )
Seat 7: WOLF16661 ( $19.30 )
Seat 8: cwbeinbo6192 ( $12.63 )
Seat 10: Renton555 ( $23.80 )
Seat 5: rusty_roo2 ( $4.75 )
Seat 6: Marbster ( $25 )
jose305 posts small blind [$0.10].
HMerlino posts big blind [$0.25].
Marbster posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Renton555 [ Qs Qh ]
Tiffany82311 folds.
RoyleAxe folds.
rusty_roo2 folds.
Marbster checks.
WOLF16661 folds.
cwbeinbo6192 folds.
Renton555 raises [$1].
jose305 calls [$0.90].
HMerlino calls [$0.75].
Marbster folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2h, 8s, 8c ]
jose305 checks.
HMerlino bets [$2].
Renton555 calls [$2].
jose305 calls [$2].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3d ]
jose305 checks.
HMerlino checks.
Renton555 bets [$4].
>You have options at Table 66379 Table!.
jose305 folds.
>You have options at Table 65155 (No DP) Table!.
HMerlino calls [$4].
** Dealing River ** [ 6d ]
HMerlino checks.
Renton555 bets [$12].
HMerlino calls [$12].
Renton555 shows [ Qs, Qh ] two pairs, queens and eights.
HMerlino shows [ 6c, 6h ] a full house, Sixes full of eights.
HMerlino wins $39.20 from the main pot with a full

[Renton]

And now for another edition...

This one is a real gem. I think I was actually a little sick after this one.

Same table, different McDonk. Preflop, he raises UTG with A8s, a hand I would fold on the button more often than not. Then I reraise, he comes right back over the top of me like his A8s is the fuckin bomb diggity or something. So at this point I know hes got Aces, Queens, maybe Jacks or the case two Kings.

What really sickens me is that I knew I was beat here but still kept calling. Harrington says that if you fold kings to what you suspect are aces, then you are a fool because you are wrong too much for it to be profitable. So I kept calling on that note alone. The flush card didn't scare me in the least because I "knew" he had a pocket pair (meaning he'd need four of a suit to make a flush. When I saw that he had me beat with the flush, I nearly puked in my fuckin soup.



***** Hand History for Game 3548741294 *****
$25 NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, February 13, 17:36:53 ET 2006
Table Table 65670 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 2: HMerlino ( $101.51 )
Seat 3: Tiffany82311 ( $30.20 )
Seat 4: RoyleAxe ( $43.86 )
Seat 7: WOLF16661 ( $18.70 )
Seat 8: cwbeinbo6192 ( $13.27 )
Seat 10: Renton555 ( $32.80 )
Seat 6: Marbster ( $23.96 )
Seat 9: howlinwolf9 ( $29.65 )
Seat 5: twobigblinds ( $24.50 )
Seat 1: Two_Orange ( $25 )
WOLF16661 posts small blind [$0.10].
cwbeinbo6192 posts big blind [$0.25].
Two_Orange posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Renton555 [ Kh Ks ]
howlinwolf9: ty
howlinwolf9 raises [$0.50].
Renton555 raises [$1.25].
Two_Orange folds.
>You have options at Table 65448 Table!.
HMerlino calls [$1.25].
Tiffany82311 folds.
RoyleAxe folds.
twobigblinds folds.
Marbster folds.
WOLF16661 folds.
cwbeinbo6192 folds.
howlinwolf9 raises [$1.50].
Renton555 calls [$0.75].
HMerlino calls [$0.75].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ts, 5c, 2s ]
>You have options at Table 65155 (No DP) Table!.
howlinwolf9 bets [$3].
Renton555 calls [$3].
>You have options at Table 66379 Table!.
HMerlino folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7s ]
howlinwolf9 bets [$5].
AA KK
if you have aces I am going to be sick
Renton555 calls [$5].
** Dealing River ** [ 3h ]
>You have options at Table 66379 Table!.
howlinwolf9 bets [$10].
Renton555 calls [$10].
howlinwolf9 shows [ As, 8s ] a flush, ace high.
Renton555 doesn't show [ Kh, Ks ] a pair of kings.
howlinwolf9 wins $40.50 from the main pot with a flush, ace high.

[dj newman]

2nd hand - reraise the flop....you did not show any aggression on the flop...for all they know, you have overcards. If you 3 bet the flop and someone hangs around, then you slow down....or if your opponent is a comlete donk...don't. I like how he called your raise on the river with the boat though...that is funny.

3rd hand - Once again, reraise the preflop and reraise the flop. It is one thing to not lay down your KK to what is a suspected AA...but a completely different thing to freeze up and call it down. The opponents at these levels are donks....it takes them a little longer to get a clue that they are beat. By not laying down KK here aka H0H...this means to play extremely fast with these hands...ie. like you have the best hand...and make your opponents pay. Also reavaluate the hand as you go along....it is sometimes tough to get your first impression out of your mind....but reavaluate what his bets mean...and do they make sense with what the player is doing now....and this is where reraising comes into play....you put him to the test. Actually when you think about it...his reraise preflop, although risky, is what won him this hand since you slowed down.

[Fnord]

Stop over-looking your bad play because your opponents play worse.

Same table, different McDonk. Preflop, he raises UTG with A8s, a hand I would fold on the button more often than not.

You're throwing away value.

Then I reraise, he comes right back over the top of me like his A8s is the fuckin bomb diggity or something. So at this point I know hes got Aces, Queens, maybe Jacks or the case two Kings.

He min-raised and min-poped you back. It's clear this guy is clueless on how to play big bet poker. Plus, you need to be concerned about the 3rd guy in the pot. Hence, I'm inclined to 4-bet this.

On the flop it's an easy raise. AA beats you (meh), but you have QQ/JJ smoked and the double min-raise makes me inclined to think this guy will go the distance with both. 2:1 on your money is g00t.

Harrington says that if you fold kings to what you suspect are aces, then you are a fool because you are wrong too much for it to be profitable.

He was talking about Tourney poker where players are under escalating blind pressure to find hands to play and almost always are far less than 100bb deep. If you always go broke AA vs KK, you're exploitable once the stack sizes get over 100bb.

BTW: On hand 2, you played the turn and river backwards.

[Renton]

Thanks for helping me.

I realize I screwed up some in these circumstances, and frankly I am steaming a bit from it. I think my biggest problem in the low stakes ring games is that I expect more out of my opponents than I should, and as a result I am playing completely blind.

Under no circumstances would a player who knows what their doing 3 bet an A8. I use this logic and eliminate A8 as even a remote possibility from his range of hands. Then I get burned when he has exactly what is behavior seemed to render impossible.

I also realize that donk is a relative term. I am still fairly new to the game (around 20k hands or so) so in reality I am a fish too.

[Renton]

I obviously I have not grown accustomed to the emotional swings of poker. I know I am not that good yet but this is so frustrating. I know bad beats happen, but its seems like in any given session, for every one big pot I win, at least one hand identical to the following occurs:

***** Hand History for Game 3550371396 *****
$25 NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, February 13, 22:01:04 ET 2006
Table Table 68536 (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 4: ElLobo555 ( $43.50 )
Seat 5: Renton555 ( $32.55 )
Seat 6: Makeitfive ( $38.91 )
Seat 1: nattylife ( $38.05 )
Seat 2: funk_monkey ( $14.35 )
Seat 7: logger03 ( $22.75 )
Seat 3: jefrdu2 ( $19.07 )
Seat 9: tomper ( $7.40 )
Seat 8: Imx1082 ( $24.75 )
Seat 10: thedewi ( $25 )
Renton555 posts small blind [$0.10].
Makeitfive posts big blind [$0.25].
>You have options at Table 65974 Table!.
thedewi posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Renton555 [ Qc Qd ]
logger03 folds.
Imx1082 folds.
tomper folds.
thedewi checks.
nattylife folds.
funk_monkey folds.
>You have options at Table 65974 Table!.
jefrdu2 calls [$0.25].
ElLobo555 folds.
Renton555 raises [$1.15].
Makeitfive folds.
thedewi folds.
jefrdu2 calls [$1].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3c, 5d, Tc ]
>You have options at Table 66236 Table!.
>You have options at Table 65974 Table!.
>You have options at Table 64892 (No DP) Table!.
Renton555 bets [$2].
jefrdu2 calls [$2].
** Dealing Turn ** [ Js ]
Renton555 bets [$7].
jefrdu2 calls [$7].
** Dealing River ** [ 9s ]
Renton555 is all-In [$22.30]
jefrdu2 is all-In [$8.82]
Renton555 shows [ Qc, Qd ] a pair of queens.
jefrdu2 shows [ Jd, 5s ] two pairs, jacks and fives.


I know I am just another bad beat brat here, but I cannot think of a way to play hands like this. These players have the enormous advantage of being completely unpredictable and unreadable.

Maybe I am just on a downswing. Maybe I don't have enough skill to be profitable yet. Probably both.

[dj newman]

Like your play on this one better. Poker is making the right decisions...whether the short-term outcome justifies it or not. This is the toughest part, just don't allow bad beats lead into bad play.

[Fnord]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

CO ($38.80)
Button ($144.90)
SB ($20)
Fnord ($170.75)
UTG ($67.50)
UTG+1 ($30.45)
MP1 ($143.30)
MP2 ($122.35)
MP3 ($72.50)

Preflop: Fnord is BB with A, Q.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $1, 1 fold, MP2 calls $1, 1 fold, CO calls $1, Button calls $1, SB completes, Fnord raises to $10, UTG+1 calls $9, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds.

Flop: ($24) 6, 2, T (2 players)
Fnord bets $21, UTG+1 calls $20.45 (All-In).

Turn: ($65.45) 2 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($65.45) A (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $65.45

Results in white below:
Fnord has As Qh (two pair, aces and twos).
UTG+1 has 2d Kd (three of a kind, twos).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins $64.90. Fnord wins $0.54.

[midas06]

^ He had a s00ted hand, that's obviously enough to call 1/3 of your stack off pf with.

Post flop he saw into your soul.

[Fnord]

OMG! I MUST BE BEAT!!!!

I CALL

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

MP3 ($56.60)
CO ($51.60)
Fnord ($98.50)
SB ($95)
BB ($106.05)
UTG ($25.05)
UTG+1 ($136.05)
MP1 ($42.15)
MP2 ($82.20)

Preflop: Fnord is Button with K, K.
UTG calls $1, 1 fold, MP1 raises to $3, 1 fold, MP3 calls $3, 1 fold, Fnord raises to $10, 2 folds, UTG calls $9, MP1 calls $7, MP3 folds.

Flop: ($34.50) 6, J, 5 (3 players)
UTG bets $15.05 (All-In), MP1 raises to $32.15, Fnord calls $32.15.

Turn: ($113.85) K (3 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($113.85) 3 (3 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $113.85

Results in white below:
UTG has Ah 5h (one pair, fives).
MP1 has Qc Tc (high card, king).
Fnord has Kh Ks (three of a kind, kings).
Outcome: Fnord wins $113.85.

[Fnord]

More unpredictable play...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

MP2 ($53.90)
MP3 ($98.50)
CO ($132.65)
Fnord ($98)
SB ($115)
BB ($86.05)
UTG ($103.15)
UTG+1 ($111.70)
MP1 ($80.75)

Preflop: Fnord is Button with 9, 8.
2 folds, MP1 calls $1, 3 folds, Fnord calls $1, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: ($3.50) A, 7, 6 (3 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Fnord bets $3, BB folds, MP1 calls $3.

Turn: ($9.50) 5 (2 players)
MP1 checks, Fnord bets $6, MP1 raises to $12, Fnord raises to $25, MP1 calls $13.

River: ($59.50) J (2 players)
MP1 checks, Fnord bets $52, MP1 calls $51.75 (All-In).

Final Pot: $163.25

Results in white below:
MP1 has 6h Ad (two pair, aces and sixes).
Fnord has 9d 8h (straight, nine high).
Outcome: Fnord wins $163.25.

Silly river took away my nuts, guess I should have checked behind, huh? No way a worse hand calls that bet...

[Blinky]

Yo Fnord: for those last two hands, did you have some read saying that the opps were absolutely atrocious players?

Sheesh...

[Fnord]

Yo Fnord: for those last two hands, did you have some read saying that the opps were absolutely atrocious players?

In the first one, it was pretty clear I was playing with the half-buy brain trust.

In the second one, I saw that player take down a pot when he called a 4x PFR + c-bet with a pretty weak hand. When he open limped, I figured he was the life of the party and started giving him immediate action! 1 orbit and I had the table fish pegged, you guys that post hands without reads are fucking LAZY!

[Lukie]

, he raises UTG with A8s, a hand I would fold on the button more often than not.

woah woah woah... are you telling me if it folds to you on the button, you aren't opening with A8s? Obviously you aren't going to be calling a raise with ace-rag, but I think an ace-8 suited is almost invariably worth a limp on the button in a limped pot and worth an open OTB.

Then I reraise, he comes right back over the top of me like his A8s is the fuckin bomb diggity or something. So at this point I know hes got Aces, Queens, maybe Jacks or the case two Kings.

Lol!! I wish opponents would 4-bet me preflop with A8s! I'd be rich.

My 3-bet range preflop (read: reraise) is quite small though....

Harrington says that if you fold kings to what you suspect are aces, then you are a fool because you are wrong too much for it to be profitable.

Without getting into the KK/AA debate, just note that Harrington's books (presumably hoh1, hoh2) are from the perspective of a conservative tournament player. If you think Harrington plays tournaments (pick good spots, smart agression) anything like some of the tougher no limit cash games play like, you are crazy. Just something to think about. On a sidenote, I don't think it's feasible to lay down KK to AA at 100BB...

***** Hand History for Game 3548741294 *****
$25 NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, February 13, 17:36:53 ET 2006
Table Table 65670 (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 2: HMerlino ( $101.51 )
Seat 3: Tiffany82311 ( $30.20 )
Seat 4: RoyleAxe ( $43.86 )
Seat 7: WOLF16661 ( $18.70 )
Seat 8: cwbeinbo6192 ( $13.27 )
Seat 10: Renton555 ( $32.80 )
Seat 6: Marbster ( $23.96 )
Seat 9: howlinwolf9 ( $29.65 )
Seat 5: twobigblinds ( $24.50 )
Seat 1: Two_Orange ( $25 )
WOLF16661 posts small blind [$0.10].
cwbeinbo6192 posts big blind [$0.25].
Two_Orange posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Renton555 [ Kh Ks ]
howlinwolf9: ty
howlinwolf9 raises [$0.50].
Renton555 raises [$1.25].
Two_Orange folds.
>You have options at Table 65448 Table!.
HMerlino calls [$1.25].
Tiffany82311 folds.
RoyleAxe folds.
twobigblinds folds.
Marbster folds.
WOLF16661 folds.
cwbeinbo6192 folds.
howlinwolf9 raises [$1.50].
Renton555 calls [$0.75].
HMerlino calls [$0.75].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ts, 5c, 2s ]
>You have options at Table 65155 (No DP) Table!.
howlinwolf9 bets [$3].
Renton555 calls [$3].
>You have options at Table 66379 Table!.
HMerlino folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7s ]
howlinwolf9 bets [$5].
AA KK
if you have aces I am going to be sick
Renton555 calls [$5].
** Dealing River ** [ 3h ]
>You have options at Table 66379 Table!.
howlinwolf9 bets [$10].
Renton555 calls [$10].
howlinwolf9 shows [ As, 8s ] a flush, ace high.
Renton555 doesn't show [ Kh, Ks ] a pair of kings.
howlinwolf9 wins $40.50 from the main pot with a flush, ace high.

Full table, UTG makes it 2xBB, you make it 5xBB total in UTG+1?? bummmmmmmmp that up. Post-flop this is a disasterous situation for you, especially if players enter the pot behind you: it's a situation Fnord speaks of frequently where you are out of position with a well defined hand and a lot of money behind. Very bad. Bump that it up good preflop. The rest of the hand plays very differently if you play this correctly preflop....

AA KK
if you have aces I am going to be sick

if you care about money, don't do this.

[Lukie]

Thanks for helping me.

I realize I screwed up some in these circumstances, and frankly I am steaming a bit from it. I think my biggest problem in the low stakes ring games is that I expect more out of my opponents than I should, and as a result I am playing completely blind.

don't steam from messing up, just realize what you did and try to learn from it. See my thread "weak overpair, 3 way raised pot". I think I played the hand pretty bad. Meh, oh well. Better than being stubborn and refusing to admit that all players are bound to play some hands poorly, right?

Under no circumstances would a player who knows what their doing 3 bet an A8. I use this logic and eliminate A8 as even a remote possibility from his range of hands. Then I get burned when he has exactly what is behavior seemed to render impossible.

With all due respect, I think you need to re-evaluate your preflop play on that hand. Also, a rereraise preflop would be considered a 4-bet if you really want to go there. Big blind = forced 1 bet, raise = 2 bet, etc. Also, just because something should never be done, doesn't mean that it's not. Be happy when your opponents make mistakes.

Also, while this isn't a play I recommend, being able to play the player is something poker is based on. Here is a good read... http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...14#Post2978697

I also realize that donk is a relative term. I am still fairly new to the game (around 20k hands or so) so in reality I am a fish too.

[Renton]

, he raises UTG with A8s, a hand I would fold on the button more often than not.

woah woah woah... are you telling me if it folds to you on the button, you aren't opening with A8s? Obviously you aren't going to be calling a raise with ace-rag, but I think an ace-8 suited is almost invariably worth a limp on the button in a limped pot and worth an open OTB.

Ok I need to clarify what meant here. By "more often than not" I mean that I would only play this hand on the button in two situations: All folds to me and I raise, or calling the bb in a 4+ way pot to play for the flush or the two pair. I'd never call a raise, and I'd probably never call if I wasn't getting at least 4:1 on my money. This is still probably a real conservative angle to go about it, let me know if you think so.

[dj newman]

The problem is you are you...and your opponent is your opponent. If everyone played like you...you would have troubles making money. Don't assume your opponent will play hands like you would...