2 hands from .05/.10 NL HE (Im not used to playing ring)

[Phantaroth]

This was a 6 player max .05/.10 NL HE Ring game at Doyles Room.

First Hand:
Table Name Hand ID Game Stakes
Sugar Shack 6271666-49544 Holdem No Limit $0.05/$0.10
[Feb 21 03:21:49] : Hand Start.
[Feb 21 03:21:49] : Seat 1 : Phantaroth has $9.85
[Feb 21 03:21:49] : Seat 2 : EasyPretzel has $3.24
[Feb 21 03:21:49] : Seat 3 : bwilly has $40.80
[Feb 21 03:21:49] : Seat 4 : ntstrght has $15.98
[Feb 21 03:21:49] : Seat 5 : thundertsw has $10.62
[Feb 21 03:21:49] : Seat 6 : putasnakonu has $6.97
[Feb 21 03:21:49] : thundertsw is the dealer.
[Feb 21 03:21:50] : putasnakonu posted small blind.
[Feb 21 03:21:50] : Phantaroth posted big blind.
[Feb 21 03:21:50] : Game [49544] started with 6 players.
[Feb 21 03:21:50] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Feb 21 03:21:50] : Seat 1 : Phantaroth has 3d 5h
[Feb 21 03:21:52] : EasyPretzel called $0.10
[Feb 21 03:21:54] : bwilly called $0.10
[Feb 21 03:21:55] : ntstrght folded.
[Feb 21 03:22:01] : thundertsw folded.
[Feb 21 03:22:03] : putasnakonu folded.
[Feb 21 03:22:07] : Phantaroth raised $0.80
[Feb 21 03:22:09] : EasyPretzel folded.
[Feb 21 03:22:11] : bwilly called $0.80
[Feb 21 03:22:11] : Dealing flop.
[Feb 21 03:22:11] : Board cards [8s Jc Qd]
[Feb 21 03:22:17] : Phantaroth bet $1.60
[Feb 21 03:22:24] : bwilly called $1.60
[Feb 21 03:22:24] : Dealing turn.
[Feb 21 03:22:24] : Board cards [8s Jc Qd Qc]
[Feb 21 03:22:36] : Phantaroth bet $4.60

This guy had just lost about 10$ to a guy with AA because he plaed 10 10 to aggresivly, so I was hoping to catch him playing a bit more defensive and steal some money. Anything good/bad here?

Table Name Hand ID Game Stakes
Sugar Shack 6271666-49550 Holdem No Limit $0.05/$0.10
[Feb 21 03:25:33] : Hand Start.
[Feb 21 03:25:33] : Seat 1 : Phantaroth has $11.35
[Feb 21 03:25:33] : Seat 2 : EasyPretzel has $2.84
[Feb 21 03:25:33] : Seat 3 : bwilly has $30.38
[Feb 21 03:25:33] : Seat 4 : ntstrght has $16.16
[Feb 21 03:25:33] : Seat 5 : thundertsw has $10.58
[Feb 21 03:25:33] : Seat 6 : putasnakonu has $15.03
[Feb 21 03:25:33] : thundertsw is the dealer.
[Feb 21 03:25:33] : putasnakonu posted small blind.
[Feb 21 03:25:34] : Phantaroth posted big blind.
[Feb 21 03:25:34] : Game [49550] started with 6 players.
[Feb 21 03:25:34] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Feb 21 03:25:34] : Seat 1 : Phantaroth has Ah 9h
[Feb 21 03:25:37] : EasyPretzel folded.
[Feb 21 03:25:39] : bwilly called $0.10
[Feb 21 03:25:39] : ntstrght folded.
[Feb 21 03:25:39] : thundertsw called $0.10
[Feb 21 03:25:42] : putasnakonu folded.
[Feb 21 03:25:45] : Phantaroth checked.
[Feb 21 03:25:45] : Dealing flop.
[Feb 21 03:25:45] : Board cards [3c 5h 7h]
[Feb 21 03:25:46] : Phantaroth checked.
[Feb 21 03:25:50] : bwilly checked.
[Feb 21 03:25:53] : thundertsw bet $0.80
[Feb 21 03:25:55] : Phantaroth called $0.80 and raised $0.80
[Feb 21 03:25:57] : bwilly folded.
[Feb 21 03:26:00] : thundertsw called $0.80
[Feb 21 03:26:00] : Dealing turn.
[Feb 21 03:26:00] : Board cards [3c 5h 7h Kh]
[Feb 21 03:26:35] : Phantaroth checked.
[Feb 21 03:26:38] : thundertsw bet $1.60
[Feb 21 03:26:45] : Phantaroth called $1.60
[Feb 21 03:26:47] : Dealing river.
[Feb 21 03:26:47] : Board cards [3c 5h 7h Kh 9s]
[Feb 21 03:26:57] : Phantaroth bet $4.05
[Feb 21 03:26:42] : thundertsw has 10 seconds to respond.

Now this hand, I was trying my best to be a little bit sneaky... I re-raised just a little bit on the flop, hoping to disguise the fact that I had the flush draw. When the turn came, I pretended to think for 30 seconds befor checking, and pretended to think a lil while again before calling his raise. On the river I once again took a little bit extra time, and put out a bet of 4.05.

Thoughts????

[Blinky]

Hand No. 1.

Fold preflop. Just fold this absolute trash hand unless you're michael1123 . What are you trying to accomplish? If you're trying to lynch money off a tilter, stone-cold bluffing with cards that stink isn't going to do it.

Hand no. 2

Honest question: do you understand pot odds?

Interesting raise on the flop there, but keep in mind that you aren't doing it with the best of it and you're out of position. You're building a pot when all you have is a draw.

Turn ... you're lucky that you hit; I like the river overbet as your hand is sort of concealed.

Anyways, general wisdom for this level of (micro) - just make a hand and bet it hard. Don't bother ot get too cute.

[Phantaroth]

What about the 2nd hand was bad pot-odds wise? I mean, none of the hand was me playing for pot odds anyway :P

The min raise flop was just to do something a bit confusing when I can still play for relativly cheap, and the over bet on the river was because I was pretty sure he didn't think I was playing the draw as well as a few hands earlier (hand 1) i'd made a similar sized bluff to win a pot.

The way I saw hand 2, im good with a heart or an ace... if the turn doesn't hit me at all I'll fold or call a small enough raise to see the river, but the main idea was that I was either just going to lose a few chips or try and get payed off big :P

So could you elaborate on the pot odds question? I guess I don't really know enough about pot odds, but I've done alright so far I won 1st place in a 3$ NL MTT for 250.00, but I do not have a real formal background in poker knowledge specifics, just general concepts. :X I guess I should read a book.

[Blinky]

What about the 2nd hand was bad pot-odds wise? I mean, none of the hand was me playing for pot odds anyway :P

If you don't know pot odds or ... aren't "playing" for pot odds, you're not playing really smart poker.

[/quote]
The min raise flop was just to do something a bit confusing when I can still play for relativly cheap[/quote].

Back it up for a second here, and this is one reason why I avoid playing at .10 - I have no respect for the money, and that can lead to bad habits.

Since there are different betting limits, the "common currency" between different betting limits is usually the number of Big Bets (twice the big blind, abbreviated BB) in LHE or Big Blinds (also abbreviated BB ) in NLHE.

On the flop, the pot is 3.5 BB. Opp bets 8BB, or more than twice the pot.
This is a very "large" bet. If we were playing $1000 NLHE where the big blind (BB) is $10, this would be a bet of $80 into a $35 pot - pretty large bet don't you think?! Suddenly your raise of 8 BB (another virtual $80) isn't so cheap anymore...

Of course the psychology of .80 vs 800 is very different and that's why I avoid micros. At the micros there simply is no respect for the money on my side or the opps'. If you can, play at a stakes which have meaning to you and which you are adequately rolled for.

So could you elaborate on the pot odds question? I guess I don't really know enough about pot odds

Pot odds. Learn them or die. At poker, anyways.

It's one of the first things that a beginner should learn - and there are plenty of resources on the web (which I'm sadly too lazy to cite right now - google it and you'll find it). Good luck and let us know if you have more questions.

[Phantaroth]

Ok fair enough, but I don't think my BR is big enough to play for a lot of money right now.

I'll try and read more about p0ker, it'll probley help me do a lot better... I think im already decent for the level of money I play at though maybe you guys think not :'(

[DaHorror]

Pot odds...the pot was what about 30c on the flop?
You'll hit a 4th heart on the turn about 1 in 5 tries (4 to 1 odds) ...so you want to call about that much to hit in general or you are losing money over time.
Not only don't you call 80c into a $1.10 pot (terrible pot odds - do this every time and 4 times outta 5 you're losing 80c), but you minraise...so now you're puting $1.60 into a $3.50 pot...and implied odds (the chance that you'll get a good bit more money on later streets from your opponent) are pretty crappy for flushes.
In this case it looks like the guy had a lower flush or a nice set to pay off with so it probably worked out...but most people would either bet the flop or fold to the overbet.

Say you bet the flop - 20c or so - then he minraises - you'd have to call 20 more cents into a 90c pot - good odds to chase a flush (better than 1/4 the pot to call).

[Phantaroth]

Thanks for your help.

Doesn't the fact that my outs are to the nut flush effect the odds because I can get paid off more then lets say I just pair my ace??

[Fnord]

This guy had just lost about 10$ to a guy with AA because he plaed 10 10 to aggresivly, so I was hoping to catch him playing a bit more defensive and steal some money. Anything good/bad here?

Your heart is in the right place, but psychology is off. There is a very good chance this guy will gamble it up to get unstuck.

Now this hand, I was trying my best to be a little bit sneaky

You out-thunk yourself out of money here. If you're going to raise, put some meat into it. Once you hit, just keep playing it fast and let him call down your bluff with his stack.

Cut the strong-when-weak--weak-when-strong crap. Strong-when-strong--strong-when-weak, gamble, gamble, gamble is the way of the Fnord...

[strawman]

Not only don't you call 80c into a $1.10 pot (terrible pot odds - do this every time and 4 times outta 5 you're losing 80c)

I don't agree about the pot odds here. With a nut flush draw and two overcards and a backdoor straight draw I think calling is justified. Raising is a bit too loose for me, but with 9 solid outs to the flush, and perhaps discounting the overcards a little I'd give myself about 12-13 outs here, enough for calling.

[DaHorror]

The example was a little oversimplified, no doubt, as I was only counting the flush as outs...if both of your overs are good you are in much better shape - pretend it's 15 outs then - 2 to 1 odds to improve on the turn, you can easily call half the pot, and 80c into $1.10 pot isn't a significant mistake...

[BankItDrew]

Hand 1: This is a sticky on how not to play with 53unsuited in the BB without raises. Just check! WTF WERE YOU THINKING !??!?!?! GARRRR

Hand 2: I don't mind the check raise on the flop at all, just as long as you bet the pot on the turn if you miss. Don't try this at any level higher than 10NL - it doesn't work. Try to play within your odds next time if chasing.