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CSI: online poker - help me profile this player

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  1. #1

    Default CSI: online poker - help me profile this player

    OK, so there is this dude on the site i play at and he's ALWAYS got a big stack. he definitely caps off immediately to max buyin if he ever goes down, and i routinely see him w/ deep stacks 250+BB on multiple tables. after watching him, i can say that he is a strong player, one of the strongest at the levels I play at (currently 1/2 and 2/4, although i mainly see him at 2/4). even though i can recognize him as a strong player, i have noticed some patterns in his play and i feel like i could use this to a great benefit against him. he is such a filter for all the cash at the tables that if i could routintely beat him, it would be well worth the effort in learning how to do so.

    here is what i have noticed about him so far:

    preflop:
    1. plays LOTS of hands in AND out of position, 35-40% VP$IP
    2. if limped around, nearly ALWAYS bets out pot from any position
    3. hand range is as wide as they come, never surprised to see him turn over any two
    4. usually the aggressor, but by no means exclusively (i will estimate he raises 60% and calls 40%)

    flop:
    1. 80-90% of the time, he bets out for 1/2 pot. occasionally mixes in a check or a bigger raise, but not nearly as often as the 1/2 pot lead out.
    2. if minraised, VERY likely to call and continue to turn instead of having it out on the flop w/ a 3bet

    turn:
    1. bets out another 1/2 pot on turn
    2. takes the same auto-call minraise approach he does on the flop
    3. if in position and the opponent attempts a 2/3 pot lead out turn bet, he'll often raise it back 3-4x but i haven't seen him push on the turn often, if at all

    river:
    1. bets full pot amount more often than not (again, almost regardless of holdings) OR he leads out for a MINBET. in any case, he could have the nuts, an average hand, or just air.
    2. i noticed that he folds a decent amoount OOP to a even a minraise on the end

    So my best interpretation so far of his play is as follows:

    preflop:
    he feels like he is a better player than most opponents post flop, so he's more likely to see more flops than your average player might be willing to see. since he usually has a large stack, he can see more flops for the (relatively) cheaper entry price.

    flop:
    he bets out 1/2 pot on flop from any position not only as semibluff and pot size control attempts, but also to guage the interest of his opponent in the hand. he thinks that a 1/2 pot bet is as good as a full pot sized bet in clearing out the chaff and getting players to declare interest in the flop, but at 50% of the risk. That is a HUGE margin if that is what it does for him.

    turn:
    the 1/2 pot bet here shows him if the player is drawing by cold calling, but it also allows him to price his own draws cheaply on the river if a player just calls w/ a better, but not great, hand. this is +EV when it works, and for both reasons.

    river:
    he really puts the pressure on the opponent to make the tough decision. the bigger his stack gets, the easier this is for him to do. once he gets past the 150BB level, he really starts to chip up and gets into big hands w/ stacks 50% the size of his own.

    please let me know what other data you might need to help me get a stronger line on his style, i'm away from PT at the moment out of town for work, but could provide that this weekend if interested. what other variables should i be looking for against him? what are optimal plays against him?
    In answer to your question... it depends...
    alias2211.com poker
  2. #2
    gabe's Avatar
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    what exactly do you want to know?
  3. #3
    Sounds like you could play/draw passively against him on the right boards by calling him down. 1/2 on the flop and turn may be worth a call if you know he's throwing out a full river bet. Play drawing hands down to suited one-gappers. You may pay a little up front, but if you know the price to get to the river ahead of time you can take advantage. Plus you can drop those hands easily if you totally whiff. That's just an initial thought.

    Sounds like you have him pegged well except he doesn't have a glaring tell - like betting full pot on the flop when missing. I have some guy that does this 100% of the time. I reraise (or take it on the turn) enough to make money without tipping him off.
  4. #4
    I think what you want is how to take advantage of his tendencies:
    What's interesting is that if you know so much about him... does he know so much about you?

    Some random thoughts:
    1) trap preflop with KK and AA - limp EP, get more limpers, he auto-raises you re-raise. You burn him once and you can do this with air.
    2) on flop or turn, check/raise with air (if isolated). Don't min raise, unless you actually want him to call.

    I'm not sure I want to reach the river with this guy unless I have top two or better.
  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by gabe
    what exactly do you want to know?
    what i would ultimately like to know is the optimum strategy to employ against this single player. so if i have not provided enough detail in my original post, please let me know what else you might need before you can start to offer tailored advice on strategy that i can use against him.

    i know a lot of posts on this forum are situational, but this one is directed towards me playing against one specific player in the best approach possible because it's well worth my time. i just played against him this afternoon on two tables (2/4NL) and he had stacks of 950 and 2250. i want a piece of HIS action since he gets it from the rest of the table.
    In answer to your question... it depends...
    alias2211.com poker
  6. #6
    What are your PT stats? (on you)
  7. #7
    while its admirable to try to beat the best, table selection dictates that it is more profitable to focus on exploiting your edge on weaker players. you should try to co-exist with him, because his skill level is probably equal or greater to your own.
    'If you think a weakness can be turned into a strength, I hate to tell you this, but that's another weakness. '
  8. #8
    gabe's Avatar
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    play tight, hammer it preflop when you know you have an edge.

    play big drawing hands with deep stacks (like Axs) so if you both hit you should win big pots.
  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by siknd
    while its admirable to try to beat the best, table selection dictates that it is more profitable to focus on exploiting your edge on weaker players. you should try to co-exist with him, because his skill level is probably equal or greater to your own.
    agreed, he's better than me. he would destroy me HU on a regular basis. so i'm going at this more like the relationship that that one kind of bird that basically lives on the back of a wilderbeast and gets to eats flies off of it. keeps the beast clean, so the beast doesn't really mind so much. so i'm all about co-existance here. i just don't want to get stepped on if i can help it, and if i make a nice score occasionally, all the better. if anything, i want to play as much with him as possible, because he's really challenging me to be a better player. i can already tell he's made an impression on my play w/ others in different tables than his.
    In answer to your question... it depends...
    alias2211.com poker
  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by gabe
    play tight, hammer it preflop when you know you have an edge.

    play big drawing hands with deep stacks (like Axs) so if you both hit you should win big pots.
    thanks. my tendency at first was to allow myself to get hypnotized by his towering stack, and then not put pressure back on him post flop which would often result in me going passive calldown in position and then let him get there by the time the river came along. i feel like reraising him in key spots is going to really help, but it's tough to do at the moment because i still feel like i need to play more with him perhaps in order to know the best spots to do that. i'll try to tighten up on him so i'm not tempting to try to out play him post flop and see where that takes me. good advice for now.

    i should note that i've all but abandoned the idea of sitting down OOP on him. he plays better position than anyone i've seen there in a long time.
    In answer to your question... it depends...
    alias2211.com poker
  11. #11
    sounds about right. if i KNOW someone can consistently outplay me, theres not much point in getting cute with them.

    the one thing that stands out about this guy is that he likes to be in the lead. with his made hands and with his drawing hands. considering my first para, you should only be in pots with him with very strong hands (because you need a bigger value edge to negate his skill edge). so in cases when you KNOW you are in the lead take advantage of his aggression to trap, but do not allow cheap draws (i see minraising mentioned a lot). remember that the farther the hand progresses, the more opportunities he will have to make you second guess and outplay you. trap him for one bet on the flop, but then make a strong move, ie AI. you may notice that he will start to play you more straight up.

    gl.
    'If you think a weakness can be turned into a strength, I hate to tell you this, but that's another weakness. '
  12. #12
    he got a $400NL stack up to almost 1000BB today. i was lucky enough to flop an effin straight flush (no joke) on him so i did get a piece otherwise he would have logged out higher. jesus.
    In answer to your question... it depends...
    alias2211.com poker
  13. #13
    gabe's Avatar
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    alias, david sklansky recently made lots of posts on 2+2 about playing with lags.

    http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...ue#Post4712110
    http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...ue#Post4837539
    http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...ue#Post4706467

    read all those and i think you will learn something valuable
  14. #14
    yeah, baby, jackpot. that is what i'm talking about. thanks for those links, that was exactly what i needed to read. i'll be reading over these several times in the next few days.
    In answer to your question... it depends...
    alias2211.com poker
  15. #15
    That sounds really close to my stats.

    (You're not talking about me are you?)

    If you're interested, I can play a game with you and explain some of the thought processes.

    I am typically around on IRC to answer questions and such.
    (It can still be a useful tool)
    To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
  16. #16
    Demi, he said he usually has a big stack.

    (bazing!)
  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Demiparadigm
    That sounds really close to my stats.

    (You're not talking about me are you?)

    If you're interested, I can play a game with you and explain some of the thought processes.

    I am typically around on IRC to answer questions and such.
    (It can still be a useful tool)
    I'm on UB, so I don't think it's you. I'll definitely take you up on the offer for some IRC walkthroughs sometime when I get back my my work trip, hopefully first week of April. I definitely want to see how a solid LHE player approaches shorthanded NLHE. Thanks.
    In answer to your question... it depends...
    alias2211.com poker
  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by midas06
    Demi, he said he usually has a big stack.

    (bazing!)

    As an interesting aside...

    If you buy back to the max any time you dip below it, you can easily acomplish having large stacks (>250xbb) on multiple tables even if you are a losing player.

    Even when I have a break even session in NL, I often have at least 2 tables with 300 - 400xbb and I never have less than 90xbb on any table, unless I have the bigest stack at the table already.
    To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
  19. #19
    certainly this guy's style introduces more variance. but i assure you, he is a very profitable player. even when he does sit down and get stacked right away, he's up to 150 BB in no time.
    In answer to your question... it depends...
    alias2211.com poker

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