flopped OESFD: standard turn play?

[alias2211]

I had hit villain pretty hard for a couple bigger hands earlier in the day at a different table, and was a bit steamed with me when he left that one. Seems like he's settled down and has a decent stack on this session. Is my turn play here standard? I'm curious to hear comments about size of turn bet in particular.

No-Limit Hold'em, $10 BB (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

MP ($1583)
Hero ($988)
SB ($1491)
BB ($3171.25)
UTG ($1421.25)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9, 8.
UTG calls $10, 1 fold, Hero raises to $45, 2 folds, UTG calls $35.

Flop: ($105) 7, 6, 7 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $65, UTG calls $65.

Turn: ($235) 8 (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $190, UTG raises to $380, Hero raises to $878, UTG calls.

Results in white below:

River: ($1185)Jd(2 players)

UTG wins $1989 with straight, eight high.


Hero has 9h 8h (two pair, eights and sevens).
UTG has 5h 4c (straight, eight high).
Outcome: UTG wins $1185.

[nutsinho]

You have no fold equity on the push and do not have the best hand, i don't like it unless he bluffs a lot

[ender555]

no reason to raise the turn..... possibly only live outs are strait flush ones. calling is the only option on the turn, and pushing or calling if you hit strait or flush on river.

[alias2211]

i hear what you're saying about fold equity and calling being the best play on the turn. thanks for those comments. i would play this hand a bit more slowly next time, especially since he could very well have boated the turn somehow as you suggest. i think the worst part of the equation was probably that the villain was probably anxious to double up off of me given our clashes earlier that day, so even with the sucker end of the straight he's gonna end up calling while ahead. that would probably be a deciding factor next time i'm in a similar situation.

i'm wondering what might change about this spot, if anything at all, if i had been out of position instead. if i lead out on flop for same amount and get a smooth call behind, then does anything change? how do you play turn from OOP instead?

[gabe]

no reason to raise the turn..... possibly only live outs are strait flush ones. calling is the only option on the turn, and pushing or calling if you hit strait or flush on river.

do you ever check behind on turn?

i think i would

[ender555]

I guess it depends on how often the opponent tries to keep the PFR honest. Many players like to call the flop with any pair, and then check down or block bet river. If he's one of those I will always bet turn.

I'm not sure against what type of opponent a check-behind would be best.... I'll have to think more about it.

[alias2211]

well, the more i think about this, the more i think he was actually _looking_ for a check raise opportunity against me, and here he got it: he knows that i play pretty aggressively in general, especially against him that day, so he would probably wait for a good check raise spot like this because he knows he can use it to his advantage. i mean what should i expect from a smooth call OOP and then a check raise on turn? damn, i'm almost pissed that i didn't have the clarity in the moment to look at that proposition more objectively. certainly, if he leads out on the turn i don't go into push over top mode, i most likely call turn and then fold river to another bet if i miss. so this was really his spot in the progression of the hand to take my stack. not too many other opportunities for that the way this all played out.

gabe: yeah i like the check behind against this type of player in this spot. it's good to be aware of keeping that option open. i gave him room to make a play on me, and he took it and played it well. normally i do a decent job on pot control considerations, but this situation got the best of me. i just thought maybe i'd broken his spirit for the day and it was really more of a play on position than actual holdings. that was not the case, though, so my line cost me a buyin. next time i have more variables to consider, so thanks to everyone for their help.

i like ender's suggestion about looking for the check/call to checkdown player. that is an important consideration. in retrospect, i don't think this player tends to do that, occasionally maybe, but not as a rule. so here it would have been prudent to simply check behind, keep the pot small until the river and reevaluate there. if i hit a huge hand like a SF or 88877 then i can think about doing some 3 betting if allowed. but until that happens, there is really no reason to get involved in a huge scrap.

[Renton]

You lose a lot of the awesome pot equity of an OESFD when the turn card's a blank. With the paired board you could even be drawing dead to a two outer.

[ender555]

well, the more i think about this, the more i think he was actually _looking_ for a check raise opportunity against me, and here he got it: he knows that i play pretty aggressively in general, especially against him that day, so he would probably wait for a good check raise spot like this because he knows he can use it to his advantage. i mean what should i expect from a smooth call OOP and then a check raise on turn? damn, i'm almost pissed that i didn't have the clarity in the moment to look at that proposition more objectively. certainly, if he leads out on the turn i don't go into push over top mode, i most likely call turn and then fold river to another bet if i miss. so this was really his spot in the progression of the hand to take my stack. not too many other opportunities for that the way this all played out.

gabe: yeah i like the check behind against this type of player in this spot. it's good to be aware of keeping that option open. i gave him room to make a play on me, and he took it and played it well. normally i do a decent job on pot control considerations, but this situation got the best of me. i just thought maybe i'd broken his spirit for the day and it was really more of a play on position than actual holdings. that was not the case, though, so my line cost me a buyin. next time i have more variables to consider, so thanks to everyone for their help.

i like ender's suggestion about looking for the check/call to checkdown player. that is an important consideration. in retrospect, i don't think this player tends to do that, occasionally maybe, but not as a rule. so here it would have been prudent to simply check behind, keep the pot small until the river and reevaluate there. if i hit a huge hand like a SF or 88877 then i can think about doing some 3 betting if allowed. but until that happens, there is really no reason to get involved in a huge scrap.

If he bets out I may consider pushing then, as you have more fold equity, and I would see it as a blocking bet of sorts, as it doesnt make sense for him to play trips like this. giving a free card, then leading out when a scare card hits. he might have fullhouse but that's still a very strange line for him to take.