I'm losing my sanity! Flop top and bottom pair

[salsa4ever]

200 NL

Villain has $97 and I cover him. He is Mp1 and has been loose

UTG+1 limps
MP1 raises to $6 (3BB. He does this about 40% of the time)
folded to me on button with Ac4c and I call
SB calls and UTG calls

The pot is $26
Flop is A84 rainbow. Check, check, villain bets $12. I call. the rest fold

The pot is $50
turn is another 8. Villain bets $25 and I call. His stack is now $54

The pot is $100. River 6. No 3 flush on the board. Villain checks. I check behind.

My play on all 4 betting rounds is questionable. A hand played with no conviction... maybe that's the problem with playing A4s. Please don't just say fold pre-flop. If that's what you think, given the read on villain and my position say it, but some comment on the other streets would be nice too. Thanks in advance

[gabe]

bet or raise the flop, the only thing worse than check call is check fold.

fold the turn once you lose your pair

[Renton]

my most common action when I flop T&B pair on a board like that is to reraise big. I play it like the same way I would play KQ on a JTx board. I know I have more than 50% equity, but probably not much more. With folding equity, hands like OESD/overs and T&B pair become a little more profitable and easier to play.

I just raise the flop big with the intention of calling a push from a weak player. When the two pair is counterfeit (which happens to me literally 90% of the time), I can't click the fold button fast enough. I am simply emotionally checked out of the hand.

[strawman]

My play on all 4 betting rounds is questionable. A hand played with no conviction... maybe that's the problem with playing A4s. Please don't just say fold pre-flop. If that's what you think, given the read on villain and my position say it...

I think you already did

I recently posted about flopping top two (http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-33279.htm) and all the trouble it got me into which has made me ponder the value of two pair. I'm starting to look at two pair as a hand I need to decide on the flop how much I am willing to invest in it and not let the hand devlope any further. Especially two pair that have connectivity to strong draws or can be easily counterfited.

Obviously you are not reading villian for an Ax or 8x on the turn? If you aren't than wouldn't this be a large enough pot to try to take down right way with a raise?

[biondino]

my most common action when I flop T&B pair on a board like that is to reraise big. I play it like the same way I would play KQ on a JTx board. I know I have more than 50% equity, but probably not much more. With folding equity, hands like OESD/overs and T&B pair become a little more profitable and easier to play.

I just raise the flop big with the intention of calling a push from a weak player. When the two pair is counterfeit (which happens to me literally 90% of the time), I can't click the fold button fast enough. I am simply emotionally checked out of the hand.

Couldn't agree more. You HAVE to play this fast, faster than almost any other hand in poker IMHO.

[salsa4ever]

yes. I agree completely

2 pair needs to be played fast. Today I played one well and managed to get my A8 top 2 pair AI against an AJ (to be sucked out by the 3 out river) LOL.

I should have check-raised the flop or the turn.

For the results oriented, villian was on a complete bluff with 9J. So all's well that ends well.

[Galapogos]

Obviously you are not reading villian for an Ax or 8x on the turn? If you aren't than wouldn't this be a large enough pot to try to take down right way with a raise?

I don't understand, why you would want to do this here? His A4 is nothing but an ace with a shitty kicker now.

Maybe I'm way too timid but I want two pair done with on the flop. I play it strong. This guy was on a bluff but I'm sure most of the time on a hand like this you could end up losing too much money if you take it too far. I feel really confident with this hands if I have reads, but from the way this opponent sounds, I don't like it here.

[sejje]

bet or raise the flop, the only thing worse than check call is check fold.

fold the turn once you lose your pair

QFT. I'm pumping the flop.

Also, as to the preflop: I think it's a fold. Maybe you're ahead here often, but I don't think you get to play many big pots when you're ahead, and you get to play plent of 'em behind. AT++? Okay, that has some merit.

Beyond that, this is your miracle flop, get some money in.

[strawman]

Obviously you are not reading villian for an Ax or 8x on the turn? If you aren't than wouldn't this be a large enough pot to try to take down right way with a raise?

I don't understand, why you would want to do this here? His A4 is nothing but an ace with a shitty kicker now.

If that's all he has than why even make the call? Pretty much the only card that is welcomed on the river is another Ace. If hero is planning to make a crying call on the river here, why not just put it in while he still thinks his money is good and still have the possibility of settling the issue. If hero just wanted to keep dipping his toe into the water and check down the river he got it, but what if villian bet? Would hero take the plunge?

I probably would have folded to the turn bet believing I was counterfeited. Considering how often villian raises, his raising requirements must be pretty loose so him having an 8 could be feasible along with Ax. This is one of those situations I need to better understand because they get me into trouble.