How to stack a player you know has AA/KK

[Renton]

Villain is a very solid TAgg. Thoughts?

***** Hand History for Game 4031600498 *****
$100 NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, April 19, 21:34:14 ET 2006
Table Table 97151 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 2: suban17 ( $116.25 )
Seat 4: Berge20 ( $98.05 )
Seat 7: rlay1 ( $66.03 )
Seat 9: RossCounty ( $213.79 )
Seat 10: Blantons ( $99.85 )
Seat 1: Renton555 ( $197.80 )
Seat 3: SevenOut007 ( $403.92 )
Seat 8: morissa ( $152.40 )
Seat 6: etjawi ( $176.50 )
Seat 5: JUSTinc05 ( $90 )
morissa posts small blind [$0.50].
RossCounty posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Renton555 [ 5d 5c ]
Blantons folds.
Renton555 raises [$3.50].
suban17 folds.
SevenOut007 folds.
Berge20 raises [$12].
JUSTinc05 folds.
etjawi folds.
rlay1 folds.
morissa folds.
RossCounty folds.
Renton555 calls [$8.50].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5s, 8h, 4s ]
Renton555 is all-In.

[Pelion]

maybe. Its much better because you raised preflop. Hes likely to put you on a defensive TT+ (or maybe even AKs). I check/raise might have more credibility. If hes been watching you alot then just do what you would do with QQ from here. bet/push might work better as might check/push.

edit: actually im not sure about the bet/ 3-bet push line. He might get suspicious with you pushing over the raise.

check/push looks like you want another bet out of AK before you close it down.

[Warpe]

Why a/i on the flop? He's got $86 behind and if he smells a rat that's off the table. Why not pot it then push over his raise?

[Renton]

I think open pushing here puts him to the toughest decision. He knows TT-KK is perfectly capable of doing this on a flop like this. Its pretty tough for him not to call if he has AA. Theres nothing in my apparent range that puts me ahead of AA. I am 14/8 and he probably doesn't think I raise small pairs OOP (which I don't, 85% of the time I have them).

[Pelion]

I agree.

I also think the times he calls here he also calls to the check/raise push, but the times he folds to the push you get that little extra out of him.

[KoRnholio]

edit: actually im not sure about the bet/ 3-bet push line. He might get suspicious with you pushing over the raise.

check/push looks like you want another bet out of AK before you close it down.

With only $86 left behind and a $25 starting pot, if you pot it, any raise he makes will commit him to the pot no matter what we do. I'd go ahead and lead here for sure. I'd suspect with a ~$45 pot after our bet he will often just push with KK-AA anyways.

[Warpe]

With only $86 left behind and a $25 starting pot, if you pot it, any raise he makes will commit him to the pot no matter what we do. I'd go ahead and lead here for sure. I'd suspect with a ~$45 pot after our bet he will often just push with KK-AA anyways.

That's what I was thinking...but I'd be worried about KK folding to the push if he suspected AA, which is entirely consistent with our line. That's why I'd prefer bet/call/reraise a/i.

[lolzzz_321]

i like it.

[WildBobAA]

i also like it

[Miffed22001]

It looks as though you are pushing something worse than what he has here because its a low flop eg TT but i dont think i call here against a decent player as they have to know they are beat

[MooMan]

A 'very solid TAGG' is not calling an all in here often enough to justify making that play over a making pot sized pot that he WILL be raising and commiting himself to.

I see no advantage whatsoever to an all-in. Why force him to make a 'tough decision' when you want his decision to be an easy one? You want him to decide to raise your flop bet.

[DaNutsInYoEye]

i also like it

[Renton]

A 'very solid TAGG' is not calling an all in here often enough to justify making that play over a making pot sized pot that he WILL be raising and commiting himself to.

I see no advantage whatsoever to an all-in. Why force him to make a 'tough decision' when you want his decision to be an easy one? You want him to decide to raise your flop bet.

This player is highly capable of folding AA to an apparent set, particularly if big cards fall on the turn or river. I decided to make my move while the board was innocuous. I think a set is least apparent with the move I made.

What if I bet, he raises, and I reraise all-in? I think there's a greater chance he folds that than he folds to an open push. He would probably figure I would just flat call a his raise with KK or QQ. What if a K or a Q falls on the turn (assuming I flat call the raise)? Then my action could be killed.

This is certainly not my standard play with a set against a probable AA. I figured it would work against this particular opponent. He is someone I have played against before who is very aggressive, doesn't like to be bluffed or pushed around, and thinks hes better than me (he probably is).

[WildBobAA]

If I was villian with AA, I would probably call.

[DaNutsInYoEye]

If I was villian with AA, I would probably call.

POKERSTARS GAME #4400592345: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($1/$2) - 2006/03/24 - 19:43:50 (ET)
Table 'Orion II' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: NutsInYoEye ($201.25 in chips)
Seat 2: flexgon ($265.20 in chips)
Seat 3: ncmike ($118.20 in chips)
Seat 4: PlayerFair ($136.30 in chips)
Seat 5: Zadan ($332.35 in chips)
Seat 6: Snatcha ($198 in chips)
ncmike: posts small blind $1
PlayerFair: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to NutsInYoEye [As Ah]
Zadan: folds
Snatcha: folds
NutsInYoEye: raises $6 to $8
flexgon: folds
ncmike: folds
PlayerFair: calls $6
*** FLOP *** [6s Ks 7s]
PlayerFair: bets $128.30 and is all-in
NutsInYoEye: calls $128.30
*** TURN *** [6s Ks 7s] [Kh]
*** RIVER *** [6s Ks 7s Kh] [Kd]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
PlayerFair: shows [8s 8d] (a full house, Kings full of Eights)
NutsInYoEye: shows [As Ah] (a full house, Kings full of Aces)
NutsInYoEye collected $270.60 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $273.60 | Rake $3
Board [6s Ks 7s Kh Kd]
Seat 1: NutsInYoEye showed [As Ah] and won ($270.60) with a full house, Kings full of Aces
Seat 2: flexgon (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: ncmike (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: PlayerFair (big blind) showed [8s 8d] and lost with a full house, Kings full of Eights
Seat 5: Zadan folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Snatcha folded before Flop (didn't bet)


Grant it, I had the As here which made my call a lot easier. On a rainbow board though I think I probably would've made the same call.

I can't find any examples at the moment, but in cases where I've been almost certain my opponent had AA or KK I've made the same play Renton did. The AI open push just screams that you want a fold. It's very hard for even more experienced players (at the limits we're discussing anwyays) to lay down their over pair in this situation. Your first thought when you see this is WTF?!?!? Then there is a moment of hesitation when you consider that you might be beat. It doesn't last long though and your thoughts quickly turn to the idea that if they were really that strong then they wouldn't push so hard. Their bet just doesn't make any sense and you convince yourself that your over pair has to be good.

[arkana]

Lead flop, if he raises call and check raise turn all in. If he just calls then bet enough on the turn so you can put the rest in on the river without it being an overbet.

[MooMan]

This player is highly capable of folding AA to an apparent set, particularly if big cards fall on the turn or river. I decided to make my move while the board was innocuous. I think a set is least apparent with the move I made.

What if I bet, he raises, and I reraise all-in? I think there's a greater chance he folds that than he folds to an open push. He would probably figure I would just flat call a his raise with KK or QQ. What if a K or a Q falls on the turn (assuming I flat call the raise)? Then my action could be killed.

This is certainly not my standard play with a set against a probable AA. I figured it would work against this particular opponent. He is someone I have played against before who is very aggressive, doesn't like to be bluffed or pushed around, and thinks hes better than me (he probably is).

What are you expecting him to put you on if not a set? How often does he fold KK here expecting AA? Does he think you're capable of making that play with QQ or worse?

If you bet the pot ($25ish) and he min raises to $50, then there's already too much in the pot for him to let it go whether you call or raise. So far he's only commited $12 to the pot and he needs to be ahead more times than he can assume he actually is to make the all in call, especially assuming he has AA 50% of the time and KK 50% of the time. This is totally discounting he might actually have AK and this hand is going nowhere or QQ and he's not risking seeing your AA/KK.

Him being a very aggressive player that doesn't like to be pushed around only makes the case for a pot bet stronger if you ask me, you can be certain of the reraise.

I'm not saying the all-in wont work sometimes, I just think the pot size bet gets all his money in the pot more often. The one advantage I can think of is maybe if you're planning to make the same play against him every time you have a hand, but seems a shame to potentially waste that hand for that.

[dalecooper]

I like a pot-sized bet lead, and if he raises you, go all in if he looks to be pot-committed. If he only min-raises, a better line from there might be to smooth call and then push on the turn. That specific line makes it look strongly like you're trying to push him out, and he'll probably call.

I don't particularly like the hero's flop push here - if he has AA or KK on that flop there are better ways to get all his money in. Granted, you'll get a lot of calls, but you probably were going to get all his money in anyway with any remotely aggressive betting line (leadout bet, standard check-raise, etc)

[DaHorror]

You are expecting him to put you on a worse pair than he has, or an overs and a flush draw sort of hand.
There is a slight possibility that he could put you on 88, and an even slimmer possibility that he puts you on 67 suited...but I think he calls here almost every time if he has AA, and most of the time if he has KK.
Good play. If he didn't call, which I doubt, then he had missed overs or he is super ultra conservative.

[Pelion]

I think he calls here almost every time if he has AA, and most of the time if he has KK.

I dont think anyone has disagreed with that. The question is, is there any other way to play it that he would call a slightly higher percentage of the time.

[Renton]

For the results oriented:

He called and showed AA.

[DaHorror]

Pelion - I'm not sure it would have mattered in this case - even a check-raise by Renton here would have looked like the same hands - most likely a weaker overpair or flush draw, with slim chances for a hand that beats AA/KK so he still would have called.

But if Renton had check-raised less than all-in, his opponent might have been able to get away from the hand later.
Flat-pushing the flop looks even more fishy/suspicious than the check-raise, so I think it really was the best option here.

[Lukie]

can't say i like this hand... good results though.

I'd just fold preflop to the reraise, this is so borderline EV even if you stack him every time (you won't). And your flop play is such an obvious set and I don't understand why people would think that a huge overbet allin on a flop where a tight player reraised preflop isn't an enormous show of strength.

[Renton]

can't say i like this hand... good results though.

I'd just fold preflop to the reraise, this is so borderline EV even if you stack him every time (you won't). And your flop play is such an obvious set and I don't understand why people would think that a huge overbet allin on a flop where a tight player reraised preflop isn't an enormous show of strength.

8.50 to take an 85.00 effective stack. Not hugely +EV but not borderline either when you are sure you are against AA/KK.

[joshuadzl]

VS this player, your read was flawless, so I think you played it perfectly. Against another player, I'm slowing it down a bit, check calling, betting out the turn and looking for a reraise. But, like you already said, this play only works vs this player\style of player, so you already knew that.

[DaHorror]

I think the +EV part of it is that you raised preflop and then called the reraise - this conceals your hand pretty darn well, and makes the flop push an auto-call for AA.

[WildBobAA]

For all those advocating waiting til the turn to get the money in, LOOK AT THE FREAKING BOARD! There are so many scare cards that will prevent him from putting his stack in that the flop is by far the best place to get the money in. Open pushing looks like an overpair. Simple as that.

[mcatdog]

I think open-pushing looks like a set. I'd lead-out for 2/3 pot and giggle like a schoolgirl when he makes a huge raise.

Question: You said this opponent is capable of folding AA, so how often should we be making this move as a bluff?

[joshuadzl]

Look at preflop raise and look at what Renton is running (14/8). If he is better than Renton (as Renton states), then he has some on how tight Renton is playing and don't htink he is fearing two suited or connectors with the raise. Is he really putting Renton on two suited or two connectors for $13 preflop after a RR while hes running 14/8? Dunno Wildbob, suppose its possible if Villian is a total wizards sleeve.

[RiverMonkey]

In general, I like a 2/3 to 1xPSB on the flop. This is better than an open AI push IMO. In this specific example, I don't think it mattered which line was chosen given that that villian didn't have that much more behind.

Folks, let's not forget that AA, and KK are in villian's range (which is of course even wider than that), but we don't KNOW that's what particular hand they are holding. Think in terms of ranges, and not indivdual hands.

[Lukie]

can't say i like this hand... good results though.

I'd just fold preflop to the reraise, this is so borderline EV even if you stack him every time (you won't). And your flop play is such an obvious set and I don't understand why people would think that a huge overbet allin on a flop where a tight player reraised preflop isn't an enormous show of strength.

8.50 to take an 85.00 effective stack. Not hugely +EV but not borderline either when you are sure you are against AA/KK.

This assumes you win every time with a set, your read that he has AA/KK every time is correct, and he stacks off with AA/KK every time.

Nope.

[johnny_fish]

I don't like it. Just bet 3/4 pot and let him commit.

I also think that the pf call is -EV vs. a solid TAG.

[Renton]

*doublepost*

[Renton]

I really like the positive discussion that this hand is generating. I am highly enjoying the fact that there are very strong players on both sides of the debating coin.

Comments on both sides are valid I think. I decided to try something different with this hand. Its nice to mix it up and get rewarded for it y'know?

[Galapogos]

Pushing it will work a lot of the time, but leading out with apot sized bet i believe will work way more. Like Lukie says, an aware player will look at this and can pick out a set. Many will call the push anyway like in this example. But if you get the guy pot commited how can he say no? He has to reraise your flop bet which will leave him with about $40 left if he only min raises?

It's hard to fold AA either way, but it's easier to fold it when you have only commited $12 rather than $60

[WhooFleuryScores]

I donk bet flop;call raise.Then CR turn/push.

Sometimes a flop push works too.

[Renton]

Chalk one more up for the Renton team.

This play is 2/2 now.

***** Hand History for Game 4092336751 *****
$100 NL Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, April 25, 20:22:07 ET 2006
Table Table 96972 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 5: cashperfilio ( $31.92 )
Seat 7: Yeeowzahh ( $40.70 )
Seat 10: chandler441 ( $88.05 )
Seat 4: Renton555 ( $122.60 )
Seat 8: prestoj ( $100.20 )
Seat 1: RiggedRivers ( $107.70 )
Seat 9: pkrplyer1234 ( $12.25 )
Seat 2: Loammi ( $55 )
Seat 3: MadjackNL ( $118.20 )
Seat 6: EvilEvilDave ( $110.35 )
EvilEvilDave posts small blind [$0.50].
Yeeowzahh posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Renton555 [ Ks Kh ]
prestoj folds.
pkrplyer1234 folds.
chandler441 folds.
RiggedRivers folds.
Loammi folds.
MadjackNL raises [$2].
Renton555 raises [$5].
cashperfilio folds.
EvilEvilDave folds.
Yeeowzahh folds.
MadjackNL raises [$6].
Renton555 calls [$3].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Kc, 6d, 6c ]
MadjackNL checks.
Renton555 is all-In [$114.60]
MadjackNL is all-In [$110.20]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Js ]
** Dealing River ** [ Qh ]
MadjackNL shows [ Ad, Ah ] two pairs, aces and sixes.
Renton555 shows [ Ks, Kh ] a full house, Kings full of sixes.
Renton555 wins $4.40 from side pot #1 with a full house, Kings full of sixes.
Renton555 wins $234.90 from the main pot with a full house, Kings full of sixes.

[Vrax]

8.50 to the pot of 15.50 and about 90% chance for winning further $85 if I hit. Not hugely +EV but not borderline either when you are sure you are against AA/KK.

I couldn't resist to not go Fnord on you, Renton

Don't forget about his 2 outs (or more if you try to stack him with 2 pair).

Nice takedown G00t read and nice aggro play of small PP.

[KY_Ace]

With a $25 pot and $87 behind, only Houdini could get away from AA. Almost any reasonable way you play it you stack him. My standard play would be to bet $15 on the flop, just call a raise and bet out on the turn eneugh to commit him. Players think you're weak when you just call on the flop and then bet out on the turn.

However you can't make the standard play all the time, you have to mix it up or you become easy to read. You adjusted your play to suit your opponent which is what playing good poker is all about. I would never fold AA or KK HU on that flop with only $87 behind and a $25 pot. $15 pot...different story, you'd have to play it perfect and have a very aggro image to stack me.

You also don't know if he has AA or KK, if he has KK, a 6,7 or A could kill your action on the turn. 1 out of 4 times you'll be losing actionn on the turn!! Another good reason to play it like you did. As long as you're confidant that you're up against AA or KK it's a good play.