Flush draw, lots of action

[Warpe]

** Game ID 788245623 starting - 2006-05-10 19:36:45
** Always Suffering [Hold 'em] (0.50|1.00 No Limit - Cash Game) Real Money
- ARGYLLjack sitting in seat 1 with $165.44
- powerpork1 sitting in seat 2 with $107.35
- Warpe sitting in seat 3 with $109.40
- Besserwisser sitting in seat 4 with $130.20
- smirnawf sitting in seat 5 with $75.30
- Kopernikus sitting in seat 6 with $65.53 [Dealer]
- AndyDufresne sitting in seat 7 with $67.40
- DanPatriots sitting in seat 8 with $15.55
- Jackkk sitting in seat 9 with $115.35
- rttrun sitting in seat 10 with $44.65
AndyDufresne posted the small blind - $0.50
DanPatriots posted the big blind - $1.00
** Dealing card to Warpe:
Jackkk folded
rttrun folded
ARGYLLjack folded
powerpork1 folded
Warpe called - $1.00
Besserwisser folded
smirnawf raised - $4.00
Kopernikus folded
AndyDufresne called - $4.00
DanPatriots folded
Warpe called - $4.00
** Dealing the flop:
AndyDufresne checked
Warpe checked
smirnawf bet - $8.00
AndyDufresne raised - $16.00
Warpe ???

[Warpe]

** Dealing the flop:
AndyDufresne checked
Warpe checked
smirnawf bet - $8.00
AndyDufresne raised - $16.00
Warpe called - $16.00
smirnawf raised - $58.00
AndyDufresne called - $58.00
Warpe ???

[givememyleg]

I would probably fold preflop being oop and all.

[Fnord]

Calling on the flop sucks, particularly since we're only 75ish deep.

I would either make it $30 or fold.

[jackvance]

In theory.. you have 36% to hit your nut flush.. in a 3-way pot, you never pay more than 33% so you have "the odds" to push. But meh, practically I dunno.

[Warpe]

Calling on the flop sucks, particularly since we're only 75ish deep.

I would either make it $30 or fold.

Wish I'd picked fold. I understand though: Either bet your draw and make it obvious that you're prepared to play for stacks or get out while the getting's good.

In theory.. you have 36% to hit your nut flush.. in a 3-way pot, you never pay more than 33% so you have "the odds" to push. But meh, practically I dunno.

I went with "the odds".

Finale: Everything went in, turn came , and got outsetted by when the river came , with my stack in for good measure.

My point in posting this:

Results aside, getting it all-in here is the "correct" play, given the odds with two other players in, is it not?

~or~

Is it the incorrect play and should we always err on the side of caution and dump this puppy regardless of the odds when it becomes obvious on the flop that we're playing for stacks?

My game has come a long way, but I (obviously) haven't learned to shy away from these hands often enough with stacks on the line.

[unidentity]

I would prob. fold preflop to the raise. Otherwise if you feel like you are able to take it down AI on the flop. AA is going to have a tough time calling his stack when you push after calling this whole time. Since this is a cash I like the AI or fold (cant choose), if this was a tourney Im pushing .

[Rondavu]

Quick Robin, back to the Batcave.

Here's a little food for thought... Why don't you put all 3 of your stacks in the middle before the cards are dealt, and let the chips fall where they may. 33% each right? Play poker? That's unpossible.

[biondino]

One of the other two MUST have a set here, basically, which potentially counterfeits some of your odds while giving them up to 10 outs. It's pretty close, isn't it - not a calculation I'd want to do with 300BB resting on the outcome!

[fasin8ing]

You want to be the princess dont you ? 3 way with a redraw to the nuts. 3:1 on your money .. I dunno man... ( great implied odds) but not versus 2 sets. Your caught in the middle .. not where you should be .. OOP .. In between two sets .. Your losing if one makes a boat which takes outs from your flush draw. I dont see how you think this is a good play... All that reraising, pushing, and so forth should have told you something. Two pair and the other guy had a set is still danger for your FD. You didnt put them on those hands?

[Fnord]

Why don't you put all 3 of your stacks in the middle before the cards are dealt, and let the chips fall where they may. 33% each right?

Give me a 12bb overlay and it's game on. I came to gamble baby!

[bair]

raise or fold preflop. fold the flop

[crushednuts]

With that board someone has to have a set. Again the min-raise rears its ugly head. With the flush draw you can still make your flush and if the board pairs you are screwed. Even if you make your flush on the turn they have Signifcant redraws. Why stick your whole stack in when you know you might make your hand and still have a very significant chance of being drawn out on. For example, if the turn was the 8 of clubs, JJ would still be 25% to make his full house. You are only about 25% to win here so you need closer to 4 to 1 to make the call...

I wouldn't have played A9s oop here either...

[jackvance]

In theory.. you have 36% to hit your nut flush.. in a 3-way pot, you never pay more than 33% so you have "the odds" to push. But meh, practically I dunno.

I went with "the odds".

I've had this little internal dialogue too a while back on how to play these hands. My personal conclusion was to lay them down unless I feel I have a lot of fold equity. Without fold equity (which you don't have here), these sorts of plays are break-even at best. Two pair and sets can catch a boat (or quads) even if you hit your flush.

I guess it's personal preference. I've heard gabe say he would always put his stack on a 50% chance to win (which I think can relate to 33% in a 3-way pot), because he likes the prospect of being big-stacked. I personally like to keep variance down and wait for better odds. I'm getting the feeling Fnord likes the gambling line more too. Maybe I'll change my perspective on this a couple months down the line though, dunno. Now I wait more.

[salsa4ever]

first I fold pre flop. then I don't get into this mess OOP.

On the flop is just tough. three handed, I think the call and hope for an overcall behind is fine actually. I mean it was a continuation bet the first time and I have no reason to think the cont-better is definitely gonna reraise it. As played I have to call the second time round as well... I *think* you have sufficient pot odds there. too lazy to make the calculation.

and yeah... I'm in the gambool it up on anything remotely +EV (risk neutral) school

[thnwkd]

pre-flop is questionable. i fold the flop simple because there's a player still to act behind me who has shown agression. If you knew he would just call then the call is good. but this is a good lesson why not to play Axs oop or at all.