AJ, TPTK hits on turn, gotta pay this off after raise?

[natdang]

No reads, sorry for the ugly formatting, that's the iPoker network for ya... Fixed it the best I could

I figured once I raised the turn, I pretty much had my stack committed... My flop call was based on two overcards which I assumed weren't dominated. (Well, they weren't...)

Did I play this okay?

NLH $.50/$1 (6 max) - 2006-05-24 22:11:13
Table River Downs (6 max)

Seat 1: Hero ($99.35 in chips)
Seat 2: ROYALSTAR99 ($119 in chips)
Seat 3: danda148 ($102.27 in chips)
Seat 4: SilentHands ($31.95 in chips)
Seat 5: DrSuckout ($108.1 in chips)
Seat 6: Villain ($175.5 in chips)

ROYALSTAR99: Post SB $0.5
danda148: Post BB $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [Js Ad]
SilentHands: Fold
DrSuckout: Fold
Villain: Raise $2
Hero: Raise $4
ROYALSTAR99: Call $3.5
danda148: Call $3
Villain: Call $2
*** FLOP *** [3d 6d Tc]
ROYALSTAR99: Bet $5
danda148: Fold
Villain: Call $5
Hero: Call $5
*** TURN *** [3d 6d Tc Jh]
ROYALSTAR99: Bet $10
Villain: Call $10
Hero: Raise to $40
ROYALSTAR99: Fold
Villain: Raise to $70
Hero: Call $30
*** RIVER *** [3d 6d Tc Jh 7s]
Villain: Bet $21
Hero: Calls Allin $20.35
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Hero: shows (mucked) [Js Ad] (Pair)
Villain: shows [6c 6h] (Three of a kind)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $219.35 Rake $3
Villain: wins $219.35

[aislephive]

Wow, what's with that minraise preflop? No offense, but that's horrible. Also, fold the flop. You don't have a pair and you could easily be drawing to three outs or even drawing dead like you were. On the turn after you pick up top pair, that raise is a bit large. I'd raise to $30 or so and fold to a raise. There's pretty much nothing you beat that is going to make a minimum reraise there on the turn so I think you can safely fold.

[PeeringGaze]

Im going to be honest here. You couldn't have played this hand worse.

You min reraised preflop with a trap hand. I know its two face cards but you're dead AQ/AK and JJ-AA. When you get better at poker you can put in a real reraise preflop with this hand occasionally but this is just terrible at the moment. Never do this again.

On the flop you called five dollars with NO PAIR NO DRAW.

NO PAIR, NO DRAW.

Never do that again, you're drawing to 6! *Dirty* outs. Even if you catch a Jack/Ace you can still have zero confidence in your hand.

On the turn you catch TPTK. I have to let you know, TPTK is NOT the nuts. It is like 80th nuts.

On the turn you raise here into two other people who's betting like 1/3rd pot. Do you really think he's bluffing? And then he min reraises you, luckily at this point you're almost committed and have to call him.

If you're going to continue with the hand after the min turn reraise (Hint: Fold!) then just push all in.

You should never have got to the turn in the first place and should never have got married to TPTK. These are fundamental cardinal mistakes of poker.

Sorry if my post is harsh. <3

[natdang]

I agree that min reraise pf sucked, didn't realize that, was multitabling and auto-raise to 4x, especially with this hand on the button.

However, is the flop call that horrible? It was $5 making a $30 pot... I don't fold to that very often. Assuming my overcards weren't dominated (I think a dominating hand might have played a little more aggresssively) the pot odds are more than correct, even for 6 outs. 6:1 pot definitely dictates a call.

Not to mention... playing 100NL and 200NL shorthanded, I find that TPTK is a pretty strong hand most of the time. Table is pretty loose, 6handed, it's very possible that people are playing top pair and middle pair on the flop this way. Yes, back when I was playing 25NL full ring, I'd lay down AJo anytime preflop... but in position I think that's okay. I'm mostly concerned about my play after getting raised. It wasn't so much that I got MARRIED to the TPTK, but I made one move and feel i was pretty much pot committed.

[aislephive]

I agree that min reraise pf sucked, didn't realize that, was multitabling and auto-raise to 4x, especially with this hand on the button.

However, is the flop call that horrible? It was $5 making a $30 pot... I don't fold to that very often. Assuming my overcards weren't dominated (I think a dominating hand might have played a little more aggresssively) the pot odds are more than correct, even for 6 outs. 6:1 pot definitely dictates a call.

Not to mention... playing 100NL and 200NL shorthanded, I find that TPTK is a pretty strong hand most of the time. Table is pretty loose, 6handed, it's very possible that people are playing top pair and middle pair on the flop this way. Yes, back when I was playing 25NL full ring, I'd lay down AJo anytime preflop... but in position I think that's okay. I'm mostly concerned about my play after getting raised. It wasn't so much that I got MARRIED to the TPTK, but I made one move and feel i was pretty much pot committed.

Well even assuming your 6 outs are good, you are about an 8:1 dog to improve on the hand so your "pot odds" aren't there. And as I said before you could very easily be drawing to three outs and not six. If somebody is out there with an AT, A6, A3, TJ, etc you are in bad shape. Besides, there is almost no implied odds here at all. If you turn a pair and a big pot is brewing, chances are your hand is no good with little chance of improvement assuming you have any outs at all. If an ace or jack comes on the turn, all the hands you beat probably get scared off anyhow. Is T9 going to be putting a bunch of chips in the middle after an overcard hits? No way.

This is a great example of reverse implied odds. You paid $5 to see the turn card and you hit on of your "outs", and you ended up putting $90 more in the hand instead drawing dead to running straight or flush cards on the flop. In limit holdem you call the flop here to peel one off since the most you can lose on the hand is just a few more big bets. You don't do this in no limit, you're drawing to a hand that is nowhere near the nuts, and even if you improve the only hands giving you action all probably have you beat.

[jackvance]

However, is the flop call that horrible? It was $5 making a $30 pot... I don't fold to that very often. Assuming my overcards weren't dominated (I think a dominating hand might have played a little more aggresssively) the pot odds are more than correct, even for 6 outs. 6:1 pot definitely dictates a call.

If the $5 makes a $30 pot, that's 16.7% or 5:1. But anyway, I agree with you here.. it's pretty results-oriented thinking to say this is a bad call, considering most situations. The only downside is, however, that it not HU.. 2 or more other people in the pot always make me suspicious.

It wasn't so much that I got MARRIED to the TPTK, but I made one move and feel i was pretty much pot committed.

You should probably read up on 'pressure points'. You want to make moves like this to sneakily pot commit your opponent - or atleast put the pressure on him with such a move - and not yourself What it boils down to is that these days I always look at stack sizes for my decisions.. a simple "good play" can turn awkward quickly if it pot commits you. Here I think you have to make the turn raise with the mindset: "this is the last money I'm putting in this pot, period".

This is a great example of reverse implied odds.

Looks more like a great example of a results oriented reply. No offense, but if the table was playing loose (which I assume from the feel I get here) then you'd have to be a real nit to lay this down to a teensy $5 bet and in doing so you really lose out on tons of money in the long run..

[natdang]

Well even assuming your 6 outs are good, you are about an 8:1 dog to improve on the hand so your "pot odds" aren't there.

Wait, wouldn't 6 live outs give me 3:1 against improving? (6/47)+(6/46)=0.25
Or by the "multiply" rule, (6 outs)x4=24% chance of improving
(correct me if i'm doing the math wrong here)

[STIdrivr]

Well even assuming your 6 outs are good, you are about an 8:1 dog to improve on the hand so your "pot odds" aren't there.

Wait, wouldn't 6 live outs give me 3:1 against improving? (6/47)+(6/46)=0.25
Or by the "multiply" rule, (6 outs)x4=24% chance of improving
(correct me if i'm doing the math wrong here)

How come you do 6/47, your not supposed to take out the 2 cards each opponent has? Do you always only count the cards you can see?

[bdawg56kg]

Do you always only count the cards you can see?

Yup.

[bdawg56kg]

This is a great example of reverse implied odds. You paid $5 to see the turn card and you hit on of your "outs", and you ended up putting $90 more in the hand instead drawing dead to running straight or flush cards on the flop. In limit holdem you call the flop here to peel one off since the most you can lose on the hand is just a few more big bets. You don't do this in no limit, you're drawing to a hand that is nowhere near the nuts, and even if you improve the only hands giving you action all probably have you beat.

This is a pretty good explanation of what's going on here. If the pot were HU, I might call the flop, but it wouldn't be with the intention of hitting one of my outs, it'd be floating.

When villian calls the 10 on the turn, and you raise, then he comes over the top, this is an insta-fold. Do you think he's doing this with QJ or KJ? Doubtful. He most likely has a monster that just woke up. As played, on the turn, I'd either call or make a smaller raise, like to 30, for a cheap showdown and because I don't really think anyone is drawing. Just remember, in multi-way pots, people tend to play a lot more honestly.

[PeeringGaze]

This is a great example of reverse implied odds.

Looks more like a great example of a results oriented reply. No offense, but if the table was playing loose (which I assume from the feel I get here) then you'd have to be a real nit to lay this down to a teensy $5 bet and in doing so you really lose out on tons of money in the long run..

I hope you're jesting. You're playing a reraised pot as the preflop aggressor and you're going to call a weak 1/6th pot bet looking to catch dirty outs so that you can what? You can't call big bets from him on later streets which is the Motus Operandi of guys who make those stupid small bets on the flop/turn, dude will pot/half pot it on the river and then what? You go "LOL PAY HIM OFF" and wonder why you're down money at the end of the day.

If you're continuing with that hand at all post flop raise it to 30 and fold to a reraise. If you get called check/fold because you're done. Calling here is terrible, absolutely terrible and that's NOT results oriented thinking.

This is a simple raise/fold situation and the only reason you'd raise here is to take it down uncontested. That would require a read and other prerequsites which may require several more paragraphs of explanation.

If you think TPTK is going to be good in this spot you're way off the mark, the preflop action, the flop, and the flop action tells you immediately that you're dead.

[aislephive]

Well even assuming your 6 outs are good, you are about an 8:1 dog to improve on the hand so your "pot odds" aren't there.

Wait, wouldn't 6 live outs give me 3:1 against improving? (6/47)+(6/46)=0.25
Or by the "multiply" rule, (6 outs)x4=24% chance of improving
(correct me if i'm doing the math wrong here)

No, the math you did is for seeing two cards. You are only paying to see the turn, so you multiply the number of outs you expect to have times two, so in this case it's around 12% or so to improve.

This is a great example of reverse implied odds.

Looks more like a great example of a results oriented reply. No offense, but if the table was playing loose (which I assume from the feel I get here) then you'd have to be a real nit to lay this down to a teensy $5 bet and in doing so you really lose out on tons of money in the long run..

There's nothing results oriented about it. Like others have said, if the pot was heads up then a call isn't that bad. But in a multiway pot with a bet and a call in front we can assume they both have some kind of hand and that our outs are not pure since we could very well share a card with one of them and be drawing to three outs, or if somebody has a set then we're pretty much drawing dead.

You seem like a pretty bright kid JV, so I'm going to let you in on a little secret . The essence of NL is stacking people. This is why it's best to fold KQ in the BB after there is a raise from up front and then three callers. You just never know where you're at with a dominated hand like that. In the hand above I would much rather be drawing to a gutshot than just two overcards, since if I hit my gutshot I know I have the best hand, where as if I hit my overcard I "might" have the best hand but I'm not really sure. If I'm behind and improve to still be the second best hand I'm undoubtedly going to lose more money in the hand, but there is just no way I'm going to hit top pair and win a monster pot, it just isn't going to happen. It's best to just fold these hands on the flop and look for a better spot.