Three of Jiggus' Histories for Dissection

[Jiggus]

OK, roast me.

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($9.14)
BB ($18.55)
Hero ($9.15)
MP ($13.70)
Button ($5.20)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, A. SB posts a blind of $0.05.
Hero raises to $0.4, 3 folds, BB calls $0.30.

Flop: ($0.85) Q, K, T (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.7, BB calls $0.70.

Turn: ($2.25) K (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.35, BB calls $0.35.

River: ($2.95) T (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $2.95

Results in white below:
BB has Th Ad (full house, tens full of kings).
Hero has As Ac (two pair, aces and kings).
Outcome: BB wins $2.95.




Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($3.78)
BB ($5.04)
UTG ($10.90)
MP1 ($6.75)
MP2 ($2.18)
CO ($25.88)
Hero ($9.70)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A, A. SB posts a blind of $0.05.
UTG calls $0.10, 2 folds, CO calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.35, 1 fold, BB raises to $0.55, UTG calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50, Hero raises to $0.95, BB calls $0.35, UTG calls $0.35, CO calls $0.35.

Flop: ($3.85) J, 3, 7 (4 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $4, CO folds, Hero raises to $8.75, BB folds, UTG calls $4.75.

Turn: ($21.35) 9 (2 players)

River: ($21.35) T (2 players)

Final Pot: $21.35

Results in white below:
UTG has 8c Js (straight, jack high).
Hero has Ah Ad (one pair, aces).
Outcome: UTG wins $21.35.


Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG+1 ($6.48)
MP1 ($6.15)
MP2 ($8.65)
Hero ($9.68)
Button ($24.90)
SB ($10.65)
BB ($10.12)
UTG ($7.75)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K, K. SB posts a blind of $0.05.
UTG calls $0.10, UTG+1 calls $0.10, MP1 raises to $0.3, MP2 calls $0.30, Hero raises to $0.5, 2 folds, BB calls $0.40, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 raises to $1.3, MP2 calls $1, Hero calls $0.80, BB calls $0.80.

Flop: ($5.45) 3, Q, A (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 bets $0.4, MP2 calls $0.40, Hero folds, BB folds.

Turn: ($6.25) J (2 players)
MP1 bets $4.45, MP2 calls $4.45.

River: ($15.15) 2 (2 players)

Final Pot: $15.15

Results in white below:
MP1 has Qh Ac (two pair, aces and queens).
MP2 has Ah Kc (one pair, aces).
Outcome: MP1 wins $15.15.

[Rockymv]

i'm still learning ring games so keep that in mind. it seems to me that you should raise and reraise more preflop, but otherwise these are fine.

[Dislexsik]

First hand bet more on the turn.

Second hand their was nothing u could do,u got all ur money in with the best hand.

Third hand was allright.I would have done the same with 2 others in the hand.

[yorib]

Hand 1: Fine as played, may check it down after the turn, but no real difference. It was an absolute horrid flop.

Hand 2: Pre flop I'd up to .40 first time, than reraise to a minimum of $2 preflop (whatever the pot was). As played I may have given him credit for a set, but likely would have pushed as well. Just note that the villian will call with J80 and push on a J high flop.

Hand 3: Reraise like you mean it. First reraise = $1 If MP1 wants to up it again I push. I'm happy with him calling an AI with AQ against my KK. As played, great fold on flop. There is no hand that you should beat under those circumcstances (either has QQ/AA or AK).

The moral is: Reraise like you mean it. In all cases you were way ahead and want the money to go in. Who cares if they fold? They've already put in a lot into the pot.

[givememyleg]

Turn: ($2.25) K (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.35, BB calls $0.35.

Why?? If I was villian I would also call without hesitation. This weak bet lead him to hitting his 2 outter on the river. Bet around $2 here. Make him pay for an incorrect decision.

2 - Raise more preflop. Postflop you played fine... just a bad beat.

3 - You have to raise more preflop. Make it $1 - $1.25. With 3 other people in the betting, you can probably assume an Ace. This is a pretty bad situation here for your KK! I would have most likely folded as well unless I knew it was coming J T .

[bair]

what is with the damn minraising lately. YOU DO NOT WANT TO PLAY AA AND KK 4-WAY.

#1: umm you bet .35 into a $2.25 pot, next time just put a sign on your head that says "im scared as shit, please go all in to push me off, or just draw out on me"

#2: $.50 for the first raise. i reraise it to at least $2.25. rest is unlucky.

#3: reraise it to $1.25, if i get reraised again, i probably push.

[Jiggus]

Thanks guys.

Yes, this is interesting. I think that we may be on to something here with the betting problem. This could well be what's killing me.

I didn't post some obviously poorly played hands where I knew that my AA was beat but still called. You know that feeling. We all do it at some point. But these fewhands were more "normal" and I do believe you've picked up on something that I was not picking up on. I am not looking at the value of the pot when betting gets back around to me and my betting needs to be heavier.

I'm now using a steady .40 cent bet, but I wonder if .50 or .60 is better?

[jackvance]

I went to instruct some friends a couple days ago on how to beat 10NL and they played pretty much like you do here.

I basically kept telling em all day:
- if you raise, raise like you MEAN IT or don't raise at all.
- bet in relation to the pot, not just what you feel like.

They made back all their losses from the weeks before that day.

[Pelion]

jiggus.

Try these for a week.

1) Preflop raises are 50c + 10c for each limper already in.

2) Any preflop reraises must be 3x the villains bet amount (or more if there are callers in between, or you think hell call a push when you have AA or w/e).
Never less than 3x.

3) Never bet less than half pot postflop. If you dont want to bet half pot then check.

I think these should hint you in the right direction.

[Miffed22001]

hand1.
half pot is enuf, you only have an overpair and the board sucks. Opps are gona chase whateva they have any way so if they make a mistake by drawing for bad
odds thats fine.
Theres actually nothing wrong with how you played these hands imo.

[Jiggus]

Pelion, JV, I think you young rapscallions have helped this aged mollusc figure out WTF has happened to my game since I've moved to Scotland.

It's like a Barnaby Jones episode: why is the company losing money after a move to a new city?

Betting does seem the likely problem. I am playing against North Americans in the main now, and the game is really different. I am getting pushed around by dudes who bet way more than I'm used to seeing. My conservative betting worked fine when I played mostly Yer-a-peein's and I have evidenced that fact on the two occasions when I've played in the afternoon, my time. People were folding all the time to my current betting style. It doesn't work against looser and more aggressive tables.

This is only a theory, of course, but how else can one explain the fact that I made 350 bucks playing my game at these limits in less than 2 months, only to have hit a wall when I changed my playing times?

Does my reasoning seem valid? It does to me. I've jotted down your advice Pelion. I shall try it next time I play, but the game you describe sounds exactly like the style that is flummoxing me at the moment.

Many gracias to you who've replied. On the one side, from your feedback, I feel like I'm not such a bad player, and on the other side, I think we've discovered a weakness which I can now shore up.

Looking forward to trying this. I hope that I can get back on track and get to the $50 tables before I move again! (I'm going to head back to the Great White North within one year, just so you know ).

[Fnord]

Consider what you're trying to do when betting.

Betting should get value out of your best hands. Build pots fast enough to play a big one when you want to.
Betting shouldn't define your hand too well. Lots of hands need to look the same.
Betting shouldn't re-open the action in spots where calling vs folding is difficult if you're raised; particularly against oppoents likely to raise you.
Betting should give weak hands incentive to fold.

Hence, weak bets are a really bad idea. They don't get value, define your hand, re-open the action into difficult decisions and don't get weak hands to fold.

This is a more aggressive game (I would almost always bet this flop for value in a smaller game), but the concepts remain the same:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG+1 ($152.78)
UTG+2 ($208.40)
MP1 ($103.60)
MP2 ($91)
Fnord ($444.80)
CO ($192)
Button ($228.60)
SB ($184)
BB ($362.69)
UTG ($240)

Preflop: Fnord is MP3 with A, Q. SB posts a blind of $1.
5 folds, Fnord raises to $8, 3 folds, BB calls $6.

Flop: ($17) 4, Q, 9 (2 players)
BB checks, Fnord checks.

Turn: ($17) 4 (2 players)
BB bets $15, Fnord calls $15.

River: ($47) 5 (2 players)
BB checks, Fnord bets $30...

[Jiggus]

Fnord, why didn't you bet the flop here, then? The way you played it seems rather passive. I would've thought to bet the flop to maximise value because by the time that other diamond falls no one is going to call you. Did someone?

The points are all valid, and I shall be trying this new, more aggressive coat on.

One thing, though, sometimes not defining one's hand is useful.

[Fnord]

Fnord, why didn't you bet the flop here, then?

Deep money, opponent seemed reasonable. Against a reasonable opponent not a lot of worse hands *call* that flop bet. Hence if we continue it raises the effective stakes of the hand and I don't want to felt this 160bb deep, nor do I want to face a difficult decison if a diamond turns. However, in a smaller game or shallow money or a terrible opponent I'm more inclined to bet because worse hands will go deep here. Also, if I knew my opponent better I'm more inclined to bet because I would have a better idea as to where I'm at if I did play a big pot here.

By checking I keep the pot under control and induce hands that are hopelessly behind to stab at the pot. It also mixes up my game. Checks are no longer a license to steal the pot with impunity.

Betting small does not acheive my goal of pot control because it would better define my hand (I have something but likely weak) and induce weaker hands to raise the flop, building a pot and putting me to difficult turn + river decisions. If he has air he can stop at any time, hence calling down 3 streets really sucks.

[Jiggus]

But what would you have done if you faced a raise from someone?

[jackvance]

It's weird play Fnord.. the sole fact that he's gonna fold when you bet is basically fine. You have to protect your TPTK. If you're not betting TPTK against this guy, then what are you betting? Only your monsters? That being said, I do however see value in a check for trapping purposes, if you know he likes to steal a pot.

[Fnord]

But what would you have done if you faced a raise from someone?

On what street and for how much?

[Fnord]

You have to protect your TPTK.

Why? It's not a big pot. Just ran into a routine blind defense. I need to protect my stack too.

If you're not betting TPTK against this guy, then what are you betting? Only your monsters?

Sometimes TPGK, certainly over-pairs, sets, big draws, etc. I generally bet my strongest hands, some of my hopeless hands and check the stuff in between. Particularly when the pot is small relative to the amount of money behind.

[Fnord]

Another pot control example.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP2 ($189.78)
MP3 ($198)
CO ($199)
Button ($39.75)
Fnord ($204.85)
BB ($380.90)
UTG ($267.80)
UTG+1 ($94.86)
MP1 ($371.39)

Preflop: Fnord is SB with T, T. Fnord posts a blind of $1.
5 folds, CO calls $2, 1 fold, Fnord (SB) raises to $10, 1 fold, CO calls $8.

Flop: ($22) 4, T, Q (2 players)
Fnord bets $20, CO raises to $40, Fnord raises to $100, CO calls $149 (All-In), Fnord calls $89.

Final Pot: $400

He had KQo. By playing it like this, he only sees 3 cards and I made it difficult for him to get away from his hand when he hits second best.

[jackvance]

You're losing me here. How did you pot control in that hand? You say "by playing like this" but I don't see anything special here except a donkish opponent who raises TPHK and can't lay it down when he is obviously beat..

About the pot being small.. it's always relatively small when you raise and another guy calls, no? TPTK is a good hand, there is a possible flush draw out.. you don't want to play for stacks but eh, checking looks really weird here to me. (except if you have a read that he'll jump weakness and fold to strength constantly)

[Fnord]

You're losing me here. How did you pot control in that hand?

I got all of the money in with the best hand while it was good. Weaker players have trouble doing this when someone else doesn't over-play their hand.

I didn't dink around with slow play, check/raises, min-raises, etc.

Without a read our opponent made a terrible play by playing back at me weak on that board on the flop as I could be pushing a big draw back at him as well as a big hand.

LHE is about the money in the pot, particuarly in loose games.
Tourney poker is often about the chips in the pot. Particulary at money time. Guys who own tourney poker play very well with shallow stacks and high levels of threat.
Cash NLHE with 100+bb stacks is much more about getting the best of it when lots of money goes into the pot. You can win lots of small pots and not do well.

Cash game players love tourney players who enter the ring without adapting because a lot of their plays aren't good with money 4x as deep, no ante and less threat.

[jackvance]

I'm probably just missing something here but.. the point was at first about Jiggus not betting aggressively enough, and then you show an example of you checking behind with TPTK.. then you say you give another example of pot control (ie keeping the pot small on unsure hands) yet your example has you aggressively inflating the pot on a monster. Is it just me or is this a weird train of thought?...

And yeah, your opp was pretty terrible there.. funny that he even 4-bet you with TPHK. What worse hand did he think you'd be calling with? AT? :P

[renegaderob1]

Fnord makes a lot of sense on everything he's written here in this post...

p.s. At first I also thought bet this (i play lower limits), but I see your point here... reads v.important. nh

[Fnord]

I'm probably just missing something here but.. the point was at first about Jiggus not betting aggressively enough, and then you show an example of you checking behind with TPTK..

Don't weak bet what figures to be a luke-warm hand given the texture. Bet it for value or check it.

And yeah, your opp was pretty terrible there.. funny that he even 4-bet you with TPHK.

When I re-raise to $100, we both know all the money is going into the pot if he continues. Sticking it in isn't much different than calling IMHO.

What worse hand did he think you'd be calling with? AT? :P

Open-ended or flush draw might play like that. Sometimes I still do play them like that. Less often now.

[jackvance]

Don't weak bet what figures to be a luke-warm hand given the texture. Bet it for value or check it.

He is playing 10NL. Checking TPTK is insane there. It can win you a lot of decent sized pots and even a few big ones against aggro donks.

When I re-raise to $100, we both know all the money is going into the pot if he continues. Sticking it in isn't much different than calling IMHO.

Ofcourse not, which is all the more reason to fold. If he calls he is playing for stacks with TPHK. Who would do that against an opponent showing this amount of strength?

Open-ended or flush draw might play like that. Sometimes I still do play them like that. Less often now.

I sometimes do this on "big draws" like an open-ended+flush or pair+flush draw. It's really bad play imo to not only raise your simple draws (unless your opp is a nit) but also go play for stacks with them. Would you really ever 3-bet a flush draw like this to play for stacks on the flop?..

[Fnord]

When I re-raise to $100, we both know all the money is going into the pot if he continues. Sticking it in isn't much different than calling IMHO.

Ofcourse not, which is all the more reason to fold. If he calls he is playing for stacks with TPHK. Who would do that against an opponent showing this amount of strength?

Remember, I'm attacking weakness pre-flop and we took the flop heads-up. It's a spew spot and an unknown opponent will tend to have a weaker hand here. Also, calls like that are how we make money.

Would you really ever 3-bet a flush draw like this to play for stacks on the flop?..

Yes, but I do it a lot less often now and am more aware of when a 3-bet might actually have folding equity. Also, there are 20bb in the pot with only 90bb behind and even less after I c-bet this. Playing a good draw really fast isn't going to get me stupid-broke.

[Jiggus]

Remember, I'm attacking weakness pre-flop and we took the flop heads-up. It's a spew spot and an unknown opponent will tend to have a weaker hand here. Also, calls like that are how we make money.

A most interesting discussion and a topic I am finding good material on in The Little Green Book as well. I have much more to learn about this subject.

Attacking "weakness" makes me nervous.

I have had it happen way to often where my decent hand, when raised PF, ends up getting zapped by someone slowplaying something like AA, KK or a flopped set.

I realise now that perhaps my raises were weak at times, but at the tables I'm playing at, the opponents are very unpredictable. Sometimes 4 people call my 4 or 5xBB PF raise, when I"m in last position, with KK, 36s, J9s and A5 off. Let's say I've got JJ.

What to do in that case? If the flop comes down low rags, I'm betting. Wrong move?

[Pelion]

If I have something like JJ and the flop is rags then im betting. Alot of opponents at this level will think their 88 overpair is gold. Just be careful if you were the one calling a raise preflop and now the raiser looks confident on the low flop.

[Jiggus]

Pelion, that's just it. I would be betting too, but I've gotten sucked in by guys slow-playng KK or AA several times of late.

My slight fear now is that what I thought was my spotting of weakness, turns out to have been the walking into of a trap.

I suppose I just need to shake it off and realise that betting will win in the long run, yes?

By the way, Mr Pelion, I have not yet had the chance to play with your betting advice, so nothing yet to report. I have actually had an enforced 3 days off, which also might be useful.

Jigs

[givememyleg]

Pelion, that's just it. I would be betting too, but I've gotten sucked in by guys slow-playng KK or AA several times of late.

Being results oriented is for your momma.

[Pelion]

Pelion, that's just it. I would be betting too, but I've gotten sucked in by guys slow-playng KK or AA several times of late.

Shit happens...but most of the time it wont. Do take note of who likes to slowplay these hands though.

[Miffed22001]

If I have something like JJ and the flop is rags then im betting. Alot of opponents at this level will think their 88 overpair is gold. Just be careful if you were the one calling a raise preflop and now the raiser looks confident on the low flop.

I like to c/r a lot in this situation against the right opponents (i.e not nut peddlers)

[Jiggus]

Being results oriented is for your momma.

Point taken.

[Bear Bones]

Preflop: Hero is Button with A, A. SB posts a blind of $0.05.
UTG calls $0.10, 2 folds, CO calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.35, 1 fold, BB raises to $0.55, UTG calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50, Hero raises to $0.95, BB calls $0.35, UTG calls $0.35, CO calls $0.35.

Preflop: Hero is CO with K, K. SB posts a blind of $0.05.
UTG calls $0.10, UTG+1 calls $0.10, MP1 raises to $0.3, MP2 calls $0.30, Hero raises to $0.5, 2 folds, BB calls $0.40, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 raises to $1.3, MP2 calls $1, Hero calls $0.80, BB calls $0.80.

Just my added 2 cents: You need to reraise these AA and KK hands pre-flop to get heads up and get as much money in the pot as you can while you are ahead, especially at this limit. Against a large field your odds are significanly reduced.

Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Ac 1392614 81.33 312251 18.24 7439 0.43 0.815
Qs Qh 312251 18.24 1392614 81.33 7439 0.43 0.185


cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Ac 537761 49.52 546180 50.29 2067 0.19 0.496
Qs Qh 185368 17.07 898573 82.74 2067 0.19 0.171
4c 4h 140796 12.96 943145 86.85 2067 0.19 0.130
8d 7d 220016 20.26 863925 79.55 2067 0.19 0.203

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Ac 302494 35.56 544584 64.02 3590 0.42 0.357
3c 3d 122475 14.40 727195 85.49 998 0.12 0.144
Jd Td 165975 19.51 683695 80.37 998 0.12 0.195
7s 6s 155935 18.33 693735 81.55 998 0.12 0.184
Ah Kh 100199 11.78 746879 87.80 3590 0.42 0.120