5-10 6m KK vs stoplose

[ilikeaces86]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($364.37)
SB ($955)
BB ($2957.25)
UTG ($1608.07)
Hero ($1021)
CO ($2603.55)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K, K. SB posts a blind of $5.
1 fold, Hero raises to $35, CO raises to $125, 3 folds, Hero calls $90.

Flop: ($265) J, 8, 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $111, Hero raises to $360, CO calls $249.

Turn: ($985) Q (2 players)
Hero is all in ($536)CO calls $536.

River: ($1521) 3 (2 players)

Final Pot: $2000

stoplose is a 29/22 and his reraising range PF is fairly wide.

[gabe]

i like leading the flop against people that reraise alot

[Iwind]

I don't, unless it's the type of player who oftent check behind when checked to if he misses, and most players I play with are not like that. Almost everyone who reraise me preflop bet any flop, and then a big checkraise is the best way to play a hand like KK on a drawheavy flop in my opinion. As it is very easy for him to put you on a draw and push it all in with a weaker hand. I also tend to play my draws the same way in raised pots vs loose reraisers.

If you bet into him on the flop it's very hard to find out where you're at, as people will call with a wide range of hands like various draws and will stack you if they hit their draw unless you are willing to fold then, and if you are too willing to fold turn they'll start calling flop more just to try taking it away on turn.

I dunno about your image though, but with my image that is pretty loose and calling preflop reraises a lot I'd play it the same way as you did.

[alias2211]

If you bet into him on the flop it's very hard to find out where you're at, as people will call with a wide range of hands like various draws and will stack you if they hit their draw unless you are willing to fold then, and if you are too willing to fold turn they'll start calling flop more just to try taking it away on turn.

are you saying that you don't like to bet the flop when someone _might_ be on a draw? that doesn't make sense from a value perspective and it sounds inherently weak. don't you like it when you're ahead and have someone that is willing to go along? to me it sounds like really spending some time on turn reads and table textures against these specific players would be well worth the effort. i agree with your concern that perceptive players start floating more when they think you're not willing to bring it hard from OOP on a scary board, but you have to address that by changing gears when you pick up on this. otherwise you're just handing them the keys to the hand and they'll either bet you off w/ weaker holdings or hit a draw for free, both -EV for you.

i think i like hero's play on this hand. most of the time i probably lead this flop unless i decide that a check raise is a better play. here it seems like the CR was the best move. i usually go w/ CR if: 1.) i think the PFRRer will C-bet if checked to and not check behind and 2.) if he draws/floats often. if these two conditions don't seem likely then it seems like it's losing value to not lead. here i like the size of the flop CR by hero. if villain goes along for a draw and catches, hero is still actually in the hand w/ his Ks draw that comes on the turn Qs. hero only has $500 left on a $1000 pot so i like the turn play, too. if villain is ahead w/ AA that is a tough read for him to call unless he is holding the As. and probably the only thing to get him off that better hand is that turn leadout all in, which may not be enough $ to get that effect too often, just sometimes. it just has to work 1 out of every 3 times. if villain is ahead w/ a set, then hero can still river a spade.

[ilikeaces86]

He bets when checked too about 90% of the time.

[gabe]

also, his cbet was pretty small.
does that mean anything

[johnny_fish]

What range do you put him on?

[ilikeaces86]

also, his cbet was pretty small.
does that mean anything

I havent seen enough of his C-bets to know if it does mean anything.

[ilikeaces86]

What range do you put him on?

Its much too wide to even list. Pretty much any pocket pair and sooted broadways.

[Iwind]

are you saying that you don't like to bet the flop when someone _might_ be on a draw? that doesn't make sense from a value perspective and it sounds inherently weak. don't you like it when you're ahead and have someone that is willing to go along? to me it sounds like really spending some time on turn reads and table textures against these specific players would be well worth the effort. i agree with your concern that perceptive players start floating more when they think you're not willing to bring it hard from OOP on a scary board, but you have to address that by changing gears when you pick up on this. otherwise you're just handing them the keys to the hand and they'll either bet you off w/ weaker holdings or hit a draw for free, both -EV for you.

No, of course I don't check every flop when there might be a draw out there I was talking of the specific situation with a reraised pot vs. a player who is very likely to bet the flop. Like aces say here, 90%, and I think that's quite normal, personally I almost always bet the flop when I've reraised preflop and gotten a caller. I think it is much more likely these players chooses to draw when I pot it from OOP into them then it is that they will check behind if I check to them. Then you sit there OOP with $650 behind with a $650 pot, and you can't really get more info on his hand. It takes time to figure out how these players play these situations as there are not that many of them, it's not all that easy to just read the texture.

I agree it's better to make them pay a potsized bet for their draw then letting them draw for free, but it's much better having them bet and then checkraise them to have them either pay a lot more or get their draw all in vs you on the flop. And another thing with the check-raise line is that you can get worse hands to call or push it all in, while I think it's more likely they will manage to get away from their weaker hand when bet into, either on the flop or on the turn when you bet into them again.

[alias2211]

No, of course I don't check every flop when there might be a draw out there I was talking of the specific situation with a reraised pot vs. a player who is very likely to bet the flop. Like aces say here, 90%, and I think that's quite normal, personally I almost always bet the flop when I've reraised preflop and gotten a caller. I think it is much more likely these players chooses to draw when I pot it from OOP into them then it is that they will check behind if I check to them. Then you sit there OOP with $650 behind with a $650 pot, and you can't really get more info on his hand. It takes time to figure out how these players play these situations as there are not that many of them, it's not all that easy to just read the texture.

I agree it's better to make them pay a potsized bet for their draw then letting them draw for free, but it's much better having them bet and then checkraise them to have them either pay a lot more or get their draw all in vs you on the flop. And another thing with the check-raise line is that you can get worse hands to call or push it all in, while I think it's more likely they will manage to get away from their weaker hand when bet into, either on the flop or on the turn when you bet into them again.

yeah iwind i was just breaking balls here, i didn't expect that you would check often you make some good points about pot control and committment. and i don't disagree w/ you about this particular hand, i don't think, we both like the CR.

as a point of clarification, i think the lead out is a good line, but to really rock it, you have to mix it up enough w/ good hands like overpairs AND totally missed loose PFRR calls (like low PPs and SCs and sooted broadways) for it to be at its best. you can't just lead out w/ overpairs for it to be effective as possible against this type of player. that level of infrequency will enable him to start floating on you. if you mix it up enough with leadouts from ahead AND behind, you can start 'stealing' pots just by virtue of acting first (which is really handy against loose PFRRers like this villain) AND you can get some bad calls from way behind when you actually DO have him beat on the flop and they're sick of your 'stealing' and looking for a bust opportunity (that more often than not costs too much). there really is something to be said for first action towards a pot when there's been a PFRR, it might be one of the few times when acting first can actually be a good thing.

aces: if villain had bet pot after you checked to him instead of the ~40% weird amount, what is the size of your CR bet?

[ilikeaces86]

"aces: if villain had bet pot after you checked to him instead of the ~40% weird amount, what is the size of your CR bet?"

$600

[Pingviini]

PF: if you havent been 3-betting him yet then calling is ok. Against this kind of opponents I would start balancing with light 3-betting so that I can re-repop this PF. I like your flop play unless you have a read you can 3-bet him AI by donking. Turn: you are screwed, pretty much the worst card on the deck came. you are getting 3-1 if he calls but I am not sure if you are good here often enough.

[alias2211]

i think we're ready for the results aces.

[ilikeaces86]

vilain showed JJ for the luckbox set.

[Miffed22001]

vilain showed JJ for the luckbox set.

sucks

[Muxy]

vilain showed JJ for the luckbox set.

you play bad man

[johnny_fish]

CO bets $111

111 = set J's, 999= set 9's?

[gabe]

i think the small bet size could be a tell if he has been reraising light and cbetting

[ilikeaces86]

i think the small bet size could be a tell if he has been reraising light and cbetting

Very possible but I have not seen this situation mroe than this one time so I really could not tell you.

[mxiu]

Not a high stakes player... but what do you beat on the turn?

[ilikeaces86]

Not a high stakes player... but what do you beat on the turn?

A lot of trash

[zenbitz]

Not a high stakes player... but what do you beat on the turn?

A lot of trash

Does this trash call your a/i alot? I guess AX with A spades is the main enemy...
And wouldn't the real luckbox set be QQ?

[dsaxton]

Isn't this hand totally standard? He played his hand correctly and got unlucky. The pot is too large to fold the turn so he might as well intitiate the betting himself with an all-in bet, especially since he's picked up a K high flush draw.

[zenbitz]

Isn't this hand totally standard? He played his hand correctly and got unlucky. The pot is too large to fold the turn so he might as well intitiate the betting himself with an all-in bet, especially since he's picked up a K high flush draw.

I think by pushing the turn, we don't allow villian to make a mistake. At 3:1 he pretty much has to call with any draw or any hand... but he might fold AK/AQ/AJ without a spade.

Maybe check/calling inducing a few random air bluffs? At the price of a check behind with Asx?

[ender555]

this thread is old but i know this player well, he's a A+ LAG. probably the best 5/10 player on party.

I don't read much into his betsize, as i'm sure he changes it up with which hands he does it with. this could just mean he has complete trash and wants you too fold for as cheap as possible. I think your C/R is a little too small, I like a bigger one so that when you have a draw in this spot you have more fold equity. Also, he's more likely to make a hero call with a jack, or QQ if you push.

other than that, obviously never fold.