KK: Facing preflop 4bet

[apunisher]

Villain has played fairly tight.

***** Hand History for Game 4511639938 *****
$50 NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, June 14, 00:37:01 ET 2006
Table Table 97853 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: AATrain01 ( $92.89 )
Seat 10: SaneJF ( $54.80 )
Seat 6: neafcfan ( $53.25 )
Seat 3: GQ121 ( $47.05 )
Seat 7: vampost ( $8.06 )
Seat 9: gilgamesh37 ( $63.75 )
Seat 5: catdaddy597 ( $3.05 )
Seat 2: RHG1234 ( $21.15 )
Seat 4: kaosp ( $39.20 )
Seat 8: run_dmc ( $54.60 )
run_dmc posts small blind [$0.25].
gilgamesh37 posts big blind [$0.50].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to AATrain01 [ Kc Ks ]
SaneJF folds.
AATrain01 raises [$2].
RHG1234 folds.
GQ121 folds.
kaosp folds.
catdaddy597 folds.
neafcfan raises [$3.50].
vampost folds.
run_dmc folds.
gilgamesh37 folds.
AATrain01 raises [$7].
neafcfan raises [$14.08].
AATrain01 calls [$8.58].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 7s, 2c, 8d ]
AATrain01 checks.
neafcfan bets [$15.01].
>You have options at Table 99063 Table!.
>You have options at Rottweiler Table!.
AATrain01 folds.
neafcfan does not show cards.
neafcfan wins $49.17
>You have options at Rottweiler Table!.

First the flop minraise, then the fourth bet practically minraise, i smelled AA. Does everyone think its ok to cut losses or am i an idiot?

[andy-akb]

What does fairly tight mean? Is he Tight-Passive or Tight-Aggressive? How long has he been at the table? Why are you making such weak raises preflop? Your first raise is fine, he then minraises you and you come right back with a minraise. Id make that atleast $12 when it gets back to me. If he puts in another raise when you make one that is actually significant then you have a choice that comes down to reads. Will he call a push with a hand worse than AA? If not, then simply call his raise and go from there hoping to get a bet from a worse hand. If you are check/folding a flop as raggidy as this, why call the preflop raise? As played I think Id probably push over that bet.

[apunisher]

What does fairly tight mean? Is he Tight-Passive or Tight-Aggressive? How long has he been at the table? Why are you making such weak raises preflop? Your first raise is fine, he then minraises you and you come right back with a minraise. Id make that atleast $12 when it gets back to me. If he puts in another raise when you make one that is actually significant then you have a choice that comes down to reads. Will he call a push with a hand worse than AA? If not, then simply call his raise and go from there hoping to get a bet from a worse hand. If you are check/folding a flop as raggidy as this, why call the preflop raise? As played I think Id probably push over that bet.

as for ur first question, not sure. Haven't seen him play many pots postflop, i just mean hes been pretty selective preflop. Call pfr for set value and to see what he does postflop, given ive shown aggression pf and am likely to have TT+. And i also called because i wasn't sure yet i didn't have the best hand, but looking at his bet and pf action, i was comfortably sure enough of my read to fold.

[andy-akb]

as for ur first question, not sure. Haven't seen him play many pots postflop, i just mean hes been pretty selective preflop. Call pfr for set value and to see what he does postflop, given ive shown aggression pf and am likely to have TT+. And i also called because i wasn't sure yet i didn't have the best hand, but looking at his bet and pf action, i was comfortably sure enough of my read to fold.

Calling this sized bet with these stacks and playing only for a set is -EV. For my other questions, why didnt you raise bigger preflop?

[apunisher]

as for ur first question, not sure. Haven't seen him play many pots postflop, i just mean hes been pretty selective preflop. Call pfr for set value and to see what he does postflop, given ive shown aggression pf and am likely to have TT+. And i also called because i wasn't sure yet i didn't have the best hand, but looking at his bet and pf action, i was comfortably sure enough of my read to fold.

Calling this sized bet with these stacks and playing only for a set is -EV. For my other questions, why didnt you raise bigger preflop?

wasn't sure yet what minraise meant, so why commit more money, only to see him possibly minreraise me righ tback?

[andy-akb]

wasn't sure yet what minraise meant, so why commit more money, only to see him possibly minreraise me righ tback?

If you werent sure what it meant why raise at all? A minraise is only going to build the pot, you said you werent sure where you were at, how did this minraise help you find out? He did minraise you right back, what did that tell you?

[apunisher]

wasn't sure yet what minraise meant, so why commit more money, only to see him possibly minreraise me righ tback?

If you werent sure what it meant why raise at all? A minraise is only going to build the pot, you said you werent sure where you were at, how did this minraise help you find out? He did minraise you right back, what did that tell you?

hmmmm, i think poss hconverter is a little faulty, because i do pretty clearly remember raising to something like 9 or 10. Sry didn't notice the hh says i minraised, i know i def didn't minraise

[Renton]

i just push over the first minraise

[Lukie]

i just push over the first minraise

I'd probably do that at a play money table, but this is a real money table.

Proof:

run_dmc posts small blind [$0.25].
gilgamesh37 posts big blind [$0.50].

[Renton]

This is 50nl, where people get all-in preflop with much less than KK.

Proof:

run_dmc posts small blind [$0.25].
gilgamesh37 posts big blind [$0.50].

[Lukie]

Villain has played fairly tight.

Hero makes it $2, villain makes it $3.50 straight. We have KK.

Do you really want to argue that the best play is to straight up push here? Come on man. I can see legitimite arguments for both calling, and making a 3rd raise in this spot, but quite frankly, without a read that our opponent is a complete, miserable, and terrible donkey, a push here just sucks IMO.

[Lukie]

This is 50nl, where people get all-in preflop with much less than KK.

Proof:

run_dmc posts small blind [$0.25].
gilgamesh37 posts big blind [$0.50].

also I want to point out that your 'proof' actually verifies that the game is being played at the NL50 level and does not verify that people get all-in with less then KK preflop. that's all.

[Lukie]

apunisher,

Any idea on what kind of range this guy is min 3-betting with? To be honest, I don't really know how I'd play this hand. A lot of times I'm just calling reraises with KK, particularly if I have them on a really tight range. But since it's such a small raise I'd probably make a 3rd one, albeit bigger then you did. As played, if you think the 4th raise means AA from this guy, as evidenced by your flop fold, you should fold to the 4th raise. I'm really tired though so I'm not sure how good my advice is. Usually at this time of the night I'm better for sarcastic and witty remarks, and I generally give my best advice after I just wake up. ps I never fold KK preflop, but calling the 4th raise and folding the flop sucks, and I think just folding to the 4th raise is better then that, but I'd only take that line if he has AA the large majority of the time. Ok I'm done.

[Renton]

also I want to point out that your 'proof' actually verifies that the game is being played at the NL50 level and does not verify that people get all-in with less then KK preflop. that's all.

***** Hand History for Game 3779040156 *****
$50 NL Texas Hold'em - Sunday, March 19, 18:53:29 ET 2006
Table Hohenstein (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 2: Renton555 ( $47.60 )
Seat 5: cranebsball ( $33.80 )
Seat 9: thegMa ( $49.25 )
Seat 6: xxMrBrownxx ( $58.84 )
Seat 3: strongarm24 ( $48.80 )
Seat 7: DaRoots1976 ( $53.55 )
Seat 10: leenar ( $49.66 )
Seat 8: arcallan ( $61 )
Seat 4: demdueces ( $50.15 )
arcallan posts small blind [$0.25].
thegMa posts big blind [$0.50].

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Renton555 [ Kc Kd ]

leenar folds.
Renton555 raises [$2].
strongarm24 calls [$2].
demdueces folds.
cranebsball folds.
xxMrBrownxx folds.
DaRoots1976 folds.
arcallan raises [$4.75].
thegMa folds.
Renton555 is all-In.
strongarm24 folds.
arcallan calls [$42.60].

** Dealing Flop ** [ Jh, 7d, 6s ]

** Dealing Turn ** [ 8s ]

** Dealing River ** [ 7c ]

arcallan shows [ Qd, Ad ] a pair of sevens.
Renton555 shows [ Kc, Kd ] two pairs, kings and sevens.

Renton555 wins $94.70 from the main pot with two pairs, kings and sevens.

[apunisher]

also I want to point out that your 'proof' actually verifies that the game is being played at the NL50 level and does not verify that people get all-in with less then KK preflop. that's all.

***** Hand History for Game 3779040156 *****
$50 NL Texas Hold'em - Sunday, March 19, 18:53:29 ET 2006
Table Hohenstein (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 2: Renton555 ( $47.60 )
Seat 5: cranebsball ( $33.80 )
Seat 9: thegMa ( $49.25 )
Seat 6: xxMrBrownxx ( $58.84 )
Seat 3: strongarm24 ( $48.80 )
Seat 7: DaRoots1976 ( $53.55 )
Seat 10: leenar ( $49.66 )
Seat 8: arcallan ( $61 )
Seat 4: demdueces ( $50.15 )
arcallan posts small blind [$0.25].
thegMa posts big blind [$0.50].

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Renton555 [ Kc Kd ]

leenar folds.
Renton555 raises [$2].
strongarm24 calls [$2].
demdueces folds.
cranebsball folds.
xxMrBrownxx folds.
DaRoots1976 folds.
arcallan raises [$4.75].
thegMa folds.
Renton555 is all-In.
strongarm24 folds.
arcallan calls [$42.60].

** Dealing Flop ** [ Jh, 7d, 6s ]

** Dealing Turn ** [ 8s ]

** Dealing River ** [ 7c ]

arcallan shows [ Qd, Ad ] a pair of sevens.
Renton555 shows [ Kc, Kd ] two pairs, kings and sevens.

Renton555 wins $94.70 from the main pot with two pairs, kings and sevens.

I dont understand the logic behind posting this hand. Just because one guy went ai with aqs pf doesn't mean they all do?

[Renton]

The point of posting that hand was to basically say that its absurd to ever second guess yourself with KK at Party Poker 50nl, except in very extreme and rare circumstances. If you're facing a min-reraise with it, and you'll be forced to play a big pot with it after the flop against a hand that COULD be AA, I don't think there's anything wrong with just getting it all in with the second nuts before the flop.

If you get stacked, then so be it. No big deal. You are going to stack the same person likewise with it if he has KK and you have AA next time, so its neutral EV.

I just believe that if you are laying down KK preflop or on the flop with any significant frequency at 50nl that you are probably making extremely weak folds a lot of the time.

[Lukie]

The point of posting that hand was to basically say that its absurd to ever second guess yourself with KK at Party Poker 50nl, except in very extreme and rare circumstances. If you're facing a min-reraise with it, and you'll be forced to play a big pot with it after the flop against a hand that COULD be AA, I don't think there's anything wrong with just getting it all in with the second nuts before the flop.

If you get stacked, then so be it. No big deal. You are going to stack the same person likewise with it if he has KK and you have AA next time, so its neutral EV.

I just believe that if you are laying down KK preflop or on the flop with any significant frequency at 50nl that you are probably making extremely weak folds a lot of the time.

Renton,

Like I said, the play is alright if we know the villain to be a horrible and miserable donkey. Such is the case with the person who called with AQ.

Against a tight player, pushing for such a massive overbet in this spot is
- t e r r i b l e -. I'll let others ellaborate.

[Muxy]

Go all in.. PF