Reraising preflop from the blinds.

[Irisheyes]

Is this the right way to do this? It feels like I'm having to give up lots of big pots when they raise or smooth call the flop.

So wheres the benefit in reraising preflop OOP? What about in position? Is this really +EV?


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP ($110.75)
Button ($99.10)
SB ($137.78)
Hero ($331.95)
UTG ($158)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A, K. SB posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls $2, 1 fold, Button raises to $7, SB (poster) calls $6, Hero raises to $22, UTG folds, Button calls $17, SB folds.

Flop: ($57) 4, 4, 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $35, Button calls $75.10 (All-In), Hero folds.

Edit: This should have been a clear call for me, I don't know why I folded. Pretend he had a bigger stack and just raised me.

-------------------------------------

And if I'm going to do it with AK, then why not over-represent AJ and KQ too?

Please ignore the SS BB in this hand, it was the best example I could find.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG ($387)
MP ($674.96)
CO ($498.40)
Button ($338.68)
Hero ($727.74)
BB ($9.62)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J, A. Hero posts a blind of $2.
3 folds, Button raises to $10, Hero (poster) raises to $28, BB calls $5.62 (All-In), Button calls $20.

Flop: ($69.62) 4, 8, 6 (3 players, 1 all-in)
Hero bets $45, Button raises to $90, Hero folds.

[dalecooper]

I definitely don't mind playing AK that aggro in a 5-handed game. By the way, I'm pretty sure unless the button in that first hand is a very tight player, that you should be calling his all-in on the flop... effective odds are way too good if you think (like I do) that he could easily have any overpair 88+, or two big clubs, to make this move.

2nd hand is blah. I would just call and take a flop unless button has been getting way out of line.

[Miffed22001]

for me either you over play the missed overs and see if these guys want to play a big pot or you give them up or call the miniraise and reevaluate.
Its tougher against better players obv who will make big calls when they think they are good. My personal experience was to overplay my AK/AQ after a preflop reraise hard because naked aggression is somthing people just cannot deal with.
I dont think i fold hand1 but in hand 2 i do at times just push here or 3 bet hard and really ask someone that even though the board says i missed im going to put my stack o the line for an opp to call off on a pp or perhaps even ace high.
Certainly tou'll have to give up pots against certain players who will raise a wider amount that will be good on a low flop but they may not like to play a huge pot with tp 87s on a 8xx board when you reraised/pushed the flop repping AA.
I dont mind going broke on missed overs in hands like no.2 because it buys me the table image i want. Perhaps that isnt the best style for you however?

[Renton]

1. I probably make this 25+ to go preflop. You want to get as much in preflop while you are ahead/flipping, or you want to take down the pot without a fight. Just checkfold the flop. Its highly doubtful that a 50bb stack is going to fold this flop. As played, Its a clear call. You probably have 27% or so of pot equity here, so you are priced in.

2. I just fold preflop, or sometimes call if the raiser is loose on the button. If there were a raise and a call, then I could see the reraise potential maybe.

[dsaxton]

It can be a profitable play because you almost always either a.) win the pot preflop or b.) your opponent calls preflop, and you win on the flop. It's just a high risk play.

[mcatdog]

2. I just fold preflop, or sometimes call if the raiser is loose on the button. If there were a raise and a call, then I could see the reraise potential maybe.

Wow, that's tight. Sure I'd fold if the button is a huge nit, or a passive guy who suddenly comes to life. But if we're talking about a button player who actually has some ability, he'll notice how rarely you're playing back at his position raises, and exploit you. A re-raising range of AJ+, 99+ is only like 6% of hands and if he's raising something like 25% on the button, a majority of those hands won't be able to take the pressure when you make it 3.5X his raise. It's an easy hand to get away from if he starts putting any real heat on you.

[bigred]

I usually call AK from blinds to a raise but op was weak/passive and I decided to experiment after reading this thread.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG+1 ($197.18)
UTG+2 ($69.88)
MP1 ($118.65)
MP2 ($133.22)
MP3 ($202.85)
CO ($103.20)
Button ($73.42)
Hero ($185.52)
BB ($99)
UTG ($97.20)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A, K. Hero posts a blind of $0.50.
6 folds, CO raises to $3, 1 fold, Hero (poster) raises to $10.5, 1 fold, CO calls $8.

Flop: ($23) 3, 5, 3 (2 players)
Hero bets $18, CO folds.

Final Pot: $41

[Irisheyes]

I dont think i fold hand1 but in hand 2 i do at times just push here or 3 bet hard and really ask someone that even though the board says i missed im going to put my stack o the line for an opp to call off on a pp or perhaps even ace high.

This is interesting, what do other people think? If I actually put my stack on the line to rep the AA, how many TAGs will be able to fold 99-QQ type hands to my flop 3-bet? Enough to make it +EV?

[Renton]

2. I just fold preflop, or sometimes call if the raiser is loose on the button. If there were a raise and a call, then I could see the reraise potential maybe.

Wow, that's tight.

I don't like having to make OOP calls with ace high.

Against a typical strong player who raises a lot from the button, sure its a call, but if you are reraising AJ everytime here that can become a very expensive proposition. You are usually dominated if called, plus you have to play a big pot out of position, plus if you hit your Ace you have even more thinking to do.

My reraising range from the blinds to a button raise is probably something like TT+, AK, AQs.

[Irisheyes]

2. I just fold preflop, or sometimes call if the raiser is loose on the button. If there were a raise and a call, then I could see the reraise potential maybe.

How loose? I think if people reraised me more preflop it would work well for them. I'm 20/14 but my range is way wider on the button. Thats what I'm trying to get at, I think most peoples button range is wide enough to make reraising lost of hands profitable. Dealing with when they give you action is the problem though.

Your second point is very valid though and something I hadn't thought of. I'm going to start squeezing people like that for sure. Only problem is that EP raises are a totally different beast. They represent stronger hands. Maybe I don't want to reraise them for that reason.

[Irisheyes]

I usually call AK from blinds to a raise but op was weak/passive and I decided to experiment after reading this thread.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG+1 ($197.18)
UTG+2 ($69.88)
MP1 ($118.65)
MP2 ($133.22)
MP3 ($202.85)
CO ($103.20)
Button ($73.42)
Hero ($185.52)
BB ($99)
UTG ($97.20)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A, K. Hero posts a blind of $0.50.
6 folds, CO raises to $3, 1 fold, Hero (poster) raises to $10.5, 1 fold, CO calls $8.

Flop: ($23) 3, 5, 3 (2 players)
Hero bets $18, CO folds.

Final Pot: $41

Thats how it's supposed to work.

[bigred]

Yes and my 1 test is proof that it will work everytime.

[mcatdog]

You are usually dominated if called.

In my experience this is 100% wrong, people call re-raises with all kinds of crap. If your statement were true though, in that case you should be re-raising with any two cards against a loose button raiser because the vast majority of his raising hands do not dominate AJ. If he's folding all of those hands then the re-raise is +EV by itself, not to mention you'll still win some of the time if he calls you and you're dominated.

[SmackinYaUp]

I dont think i fold hand1 but in hand 2 i do at times just push here or 3 bet hard and really ask someone that even though the board says i missed im going to put my stack o the line for an opp to call off on a pp or perhaps even ace high.

This is interesting, what do other people think? If I actually put my stack on the line to rep the AA, how many TAGs will be able to fold 99-QQ type hands to my flop 3-bet? Enough to make it +EV?

I notice that most tags at 400NL will give up if they are behind or miss the flop once they have given control of the hand over to you. In other words, they only call your preflop re-raise and you lead out into them. They assume you are on a high PP and can get away from small PP's up to JJ I'd guess as well as AK/AQ. They know that they have reverse implied odds because you either have them dominated with AK or beaten with a bigger pair and are looking to hit the flop pretty hard.

If the tags call or raise you after the flop, its best to give it to them and if they constantly stick around post-flop after calling your reraises, they are going to get pummeled by your big pairs often enough to make up for the times they get you to fold AK.

Reraising with AJ from the blinds is an OK move if the PFR'er is loose from the button, but you're really not going to care whether you hit or not because AJ is usually dominated and any postflop action you get is very bad news (including when you hit an ace) because you've represented a lot of strength so, for the most part, its going to take a lot of strength for them to give any more action to you.

Also, don't forget about how often people raise preflop with AA/KK and then just call your re-raise. They know that a solid player like yourself isn't going to call a 3bet or allin with crap preflop so they will at least give you a chance to hang yourself on the flop.

This is all just pretty general though so don't take my word for sure on it. People will always surprise you with what they have and how they play it. I just assume that they are set hunting when they cold call reraises and that they will fold the flop unless they've outflopped the big pair you're representing.

[dalecooper]

I don't know if this is good, bad, or indifferent, but I am generally a lot more likely to just call with AJ/AT type hands from the blinds against a frequent button raiser, and then give a hesitation-donkbet move on the flop if it looks scattershot enough (or god forbid, if I actually pair up). They let that go quite a lot of the time and it doesn't look so much like a "move".

[SmackinYaUp]

I don't know if this is good, bad, or indifferent, but I am generally a lot more likely to just call with AJ/AT type hands from the blinds against a frequent button raiser, and then give a hesitation-donkbet move on the flop if it looks scattershot enough (or god forbid, if I actually pair up). They let that go quite a lot of the time and it doesn't look so much like a "move".

I prefer to either re-raise or fold AJ/AT from the blinds against a frequent button raiser. It makes it easier when you take control of the hand. If you just call and pair up, you're probably good against a loose button raiser but he still has all the advantage because you have no idea where you're at.

[dalecooper]

I feel the need to clarify - I meant a medium-agg good player, not a full-throttle type. If they're raising my blind every time or every other time I definitely start re-raising with AT and AJ, and sometimes worse.

[bigred]

I don't know if this is good, bad, or indifferent, but I am generally a lot more likely to just call with AJ/AT type hands from the blinds against a frequent button raiser, and then give a hesitation-donkbet move on the flop if it looks scattershot enough (or god forbid, if I actually pair up). They let that go quite a lot of the time and it doesn't look so much like a "move".

I prefer to either re-raise or fold AJ/AT from the blinds against a frequent button raiser. It makes it easier when you take control of the hand. If you just call and pair up, you're probably good against a loose button raiser but he still has all the advantage because you have no idea where you're at.

But if it's a decent player who realizes that the passive caller is probably only betting flop OOP if he hits, could his play be an effective one? I usually like to establish aggression as well but your OOP so if op calls behind, where are you at now?

I like both plays but I'm right now trying to decide which one I like more and against what kinds of ops. Thoughts?

[Miffed22001]

Reraising with AJ from the blinds is an OK move if the PFR'er is loose from the button, but you're really not going to care whether you hit or not because AJ is usually dominated and any postflop action you get is very bad news (including when you hit an ace) because you've represented a lot of strength so, for the most part, its going to take a lot of strength for them to give any more action to you.

Not sure how much i agree with this and i hate to say it depends. I think folding AJ/AT especially sooted perhaps is quite weak for blind play but then if we overplay/reraise AK/AQ/JJ/TT/99 type hands in the blinds then perhaps taking AJ/AT out of this range gives us a better balance. Dunno.

But if it's a decent player who realizes that the passive caller is probably only betting flop OOP if he hits, could his play be an effective one? I usually like to establish aggression as well but your OOP so if op calls behind, where are you at now?

I like both plays but I'm right now trying to decide which one I like more and against what kinds of ops. Thoughts?

perhasp we need different lines that include leading as well as check/call lead turn and c/r lines as well with these type hands. Id argue a lot depends on how both us and our opp plays the flop/turn with draws/tp/any pair. Against opps who are aggressive i like a c/r line or the check/call-lead line whereas against passives leading is preferable but i dont know how well that takes into consideration how i get away from my hand on later streets

[SmackinYaUp]

But if it's a decent player who realizes that the passive caller is probably only betting flop OOP if he hits, could his play be an effective one? I usually like to establish aggression as well but your OOP so if op calls behind, where are you at now?

I like both plays but I'm right now trying to decide which one I like more and against what kinds of ops. Thoughts?

I suppose if you are a passive player or maybe if you've been missing a lot of flops and appear passive then you could try betting OOP but they still have the luxury of raising or floating your ass because you played it passive and didnt take control of the hand. On top of that, it frustrates your opponents more if you re-raise them and you're gonna look like an action junkie.

[Renton]

I am one of those players who doesn't like reraising. Reraising increases the stack to pot ratio, forcing your opponent to play better poker after the flop. It limits the possibilities of outplaying them after the flop because so much money is invested preflop.

Here is a basic list of the circumstances when i'll reraise. Tell me if this is a flawed way of looking at it.

1. With a premium hand* in HJ or CO after a UTG raise. My reasoning isnt for value, but for isolation. Especially if the UTG raise is weak, like only 2-3x bb. I know if I only call, I will only incourage other callers.

2. With a premium hand against a late position raise from a strong player. I don't want to play a big pot out of position against what could potentially be an implied odds hand like 87s.

3. With a premium hand against a raise and one or more calls. Once again, isolation.

4. With two cards against a loose (but good) player who is getting out of line. I am far more apt to make this play if someone called his raise.

5. With AA for value against a 2% PFR fish whose raise almost certainly means AK, QQ+.

6. With AK against a player who I think I will have fold equity against when I miss the flop.


*By premium hand, I generally mean AQs, AK, TT+.

[Miffed22001]

I am one of those players who doesn't like reraising. Reraising increases the stack to pot ratio, forcing your opponent to play better poker after the flop. It limits the possibilities of outplaying them after the flop because so much money is invested preflop.

Here is a basic list of the circumstances when i'll reraise. Tell me if this is a flawed way of looking at it.

1. With a premium hand* in HJ or CO after a UTG raise. My reasoning isnt for value, but for isolation. Especially if the UTG raise is weak, like only 2-3x bb. I know if I only call, I will only incourage other callers.

2. With a premium hand against a late position raise from a strong player. I don't want to play a big pot out of position against what could potentially be an implied odds hand like 87s.

3. With a premium hand against a raise and one or more calls. Once again, isolation.

4. With two cards against a loose (but good) player who is getting out of line. I am far more apt to make this play if someone called his raise.

5. With AA for value against a 2% PFR fish whose raise almost certainly means AK, QQ+.

6. With AK against a player who I think I will have fold equity against when I miss the flop.


*By premium hand, I generally mean AQs, AK, TT+.

this is fine for full ring.
Im not sure how we adapt it to 6max because the game isnt so ridged.

[dalecooper]

I'm pretty much in the same camp as you, Renton. I also like playing smallball with strong hands against bad players - I feel like I am infinitely more qualified than them to make good decisions, especially necessary laydowns or bets that sucker them in with their second best hands. I'll re-raise when I think I can get them to dump all their money in pre-flop (or get pot committed pre-flop and dump the rest in shortly thereafter), but if the stacks are deep I'm more interested in seeing a flop with them than sending up the "I have aces" flare.

[Irisheyes]

Think of how much value we are laeving on the table when we fold AJ in the BB because of a raise from a button player who raises maybe 30% of his hands on the Button. Often we have the best hand and even have him dominated alot if he raises Ax type hands as I think alot of people do. Because of this I think folding is not an option.

So between calling and raising which is the better play?

If I call, yes the pot is small etc. but I find myself missing and check folding over 60% of the time. If I attempt not check folding (ie. playing back with A high, which is the best hand alot of the time) when I miss, I still find myself playing a big pot OOP with a weak hand.This was your reason for not reraising, you didn't like doing this. If I simply check fold the flop when I miss, the button raiser gets the best of it almost as much as when I fold preflop.

The only other option is to reraise. Fair enough, it does mean that I play a big pot OOP but at least this way I have the inititive in the hand and I put pressure on the other guy to make a hand. Most of the time he wont and I can take the (big) pot.

Also I think that when I reraise someone preflop and they call, alot of their range is mid-low pocket pairs. This comes back to Lukies "hypothetical question" post. Most of the time they miss on the flop and I get the best of it. When they do hit, I have a hand that is easy to get away from. They have false implied odds preflop because I am repping AA/KK, thus I am forcing a mistake from them.

Reraising preflop also has shania implications. As people see my reraising range increace, thier calling range will increace in tandem. This potentially allows my AA hands to have huge value in reraising situations because people have seen me reraise light. The fact that their calling range increaces as I reraise more also adds value to my KQ type hands.

[SmackinYaUp]

Think of how much value we are laeving on the table when we fold AJ in the BB because of a raise from a button player who raises maybe 30% of his hands on the Button. Often we have the best hand and even have him dominated alot if he raises Ax type hands as I think alot of people do. Because of this I think folding is not an option.

So between calling and raising which is the better play?

If I call, yes the pot is small etc. but I find myself missing and check folding over 60% of the time. If I attempt not check folding (ie. playing back with A high, which is the best hand alot of the time) when I miss, I still find myself playing a big pot OOP with a weak hand.This was your reason for not reraising, you didn't like doing this. If I simply check fold the flop when I miss, the button raiser gets the best of it almost as much as when I fold preflop.

The only other option is to reraise. Fair enough, it does mean that I play a big pot OOP but at least this way I have the inititive in the hand and I put pressure on the other guy to make a hand. Most of the time he wont and I can take the (big) pot.

Also I think that when I reraise someone preflop and they call, alot of their range is mid-low pocket pairs. This comes back to Lukies "hypothetical question" post. Most of the time they miss on the flop and I get the best of it. When they do hit, I have a hand that is easy to get away from. They have false implied odds preflop because I am repping AA/KK, thus I am forcing a mistake from them.

Reraising preflop also has shania implications. As people see my reraising range increace, thier calling range will increace in tandem. This potentially allows my AA hands to have huge value in reraising situations because people have seen me reraise light. The fact that their calling range increaces as I reraise more also adds value to my KQ type hands.

I agree 100% and this is why I re-raise preflop from the blinds and all other positions.