Lukie vs gabe headsup hand

[Lukie]

Technically this should probably go in the SnG forum since it was a freezeout, but the stacks were deep enough that it played more like a cash game, we are both cash game players, and I don't often check there. This is from memory so if the action isn't exact, but it's pretty damn close.

Winner takes $50 but that is of no importance. Can't say the same about pride and bragging rights, however. Game is being played at trik's place by Dallas/Fort Worth.

We havn't played an extremely long time, maybe a dozen or so hands, and the game has played fairly conservatively so far. Also, I havn't limped my button yet, I'm probably at about 50% raise and 50% fold. I've stabbed at every pot I've raised.

Stacks are something like Lukie (140) and gabe (150). 1/2 blinds.

I limp my button with J9o, gabe checks his option.

Flop 8TQ rainbow, giving me the nut straight. Gabe leads 3 into a 4 pot, I make it 10 straight. Gabe calls and checks to me on a rag, offsuit turn. I make it 15 into a 24 pot, gabe calls.

River pairs the 8 on the board. Gabe leads 30 into a 54 pot, I pretend like I'm thinking for a second and push. He hadn't raised his BB yet (he only had opportunities to reraise) but he'd raise 88/TT/QQ preflop.

Thoughts?

[jackvance]

nh

[johnnyBuz]

only hand i could see him having that would beat you is 8Ts perhaps, but that doesn't seem likely.

nh.

[yorib]

Because you both checked, it's very difficult to make any inferences about your starting hands, but I'll toss out my thoughts.

Gabe hadn't ever reraised/raised his BB, and you hadn't limped. Gabe's likely thinking that you are trapping and/or doesn't want to build up a pot with his hand. That would imply a non-drawing type hand.

Gabe takes a stab at the pot and you raise. Gabe thinks "Lukie was trying to trap me and has KK+, two pair, or he might be thinking that I'm stealing". Gabe calls so he either has a hand and is hoping you'll hang yourself, or he has a weird draw and doesn't want to look weak folding to a reraise on the flop.

I think the Turn was more important than you give credit for, as Gabe would check/fold without something solid. You've raised on the flop and the turn, so Gabe must put you on at least two pair. As the board is devoid of draws he must have at least two pair himself, however he opts not to reraise which implies pot-control. (Or, a monster).

The board pairs giving hands like 8T/8Q (or pair of rags) a FH. If Gabe has a hand he has two choices, bet hoping you'll reraise, or check/rasing. If he has two pair (or less) he can fold to reraise with a bet, as you've shown nothing but strength, he has to imagine that you'll push with anything but a bluff. Gabe is likely to call with trips+ (or possibly an overpair), but it's a tough call to make. The worst hand you can realistically have at this point is top two pair. So if he calls, that means he can beat top two pair. If he called, you better hope he only had an 8.

[Fnord]

You fold too much pre-flop.

Gabe probably has trips here, unsure if he gambles and calls your push.

edit: Meh, a Qx stringing you along fits too.

[gabe]

lukie is a nit so i toss anything less than KQ on the turn. i probably dont have KQ or AQ though because of preflop check, although sometimes i would check KQ.

i think with a set i would try to get more in on the flop, but I never have TT or QQ on that flop because of preflop. QT i might try to get more money on flop too.

a straight i would probably hammer on the turn.

i think the river push is bad because i didn't check call you down with 8x because of your notoriously nitty image. i have T8 here alot, sometimes Q8 and even less missed KJ.

[Irisheyes]

I need more information: Who is drunkest?

[gabe]

im prob 3 beers deep, lukie was probably one his first coke and vodka (who the fuck drinks coke and vodka?)

[Irisheyes]

lolollo coke and vodka. My gf drinks coke and vodka.

On the basis of this new information I say terribly played Lukie.

[gabe]

your gf sucks at poker i take it?

[Irisheyes]

Yep I think those things go hand in hand.

[Irisheyes]

Oh and now I actually remember why I wanted to post here in the first place..

I thought you should never fold the SB HU. You are getting 3:1

[theDEEPdish]

that seems like an obvious call on the river


coke+vanilla vodka=good

[Fnord]

Oh and now I actually remember why I wanted to post here in the first place..

I thought you should never fold the SB HU. You are getting 3:1

First, this only applies when the blinds are correct and the SB is last to act post-flop but first to act pre-flop. In which case you should be doing a lot of limping (or lots of raising if you want to raise the effective stakes or just "apeshit aggro" a weak player.) Otherwise, if you're acting first on every betting round, playing tight against a good post-flop player is prudent (Lukie might not have made this adjustment from his non-HU play.)

Second, 3:1 is really deceptive. With deep money, you really need to figure to get the best of it post-flop, hence at some point it's more about building pots and taking flops with the best of it. No one generally has much of anything anyway, so lots of the classic problems with domination and such are diminished. However, I think the utter trash is still trash unless you want to bluff (unconnected offsuit hands with a 2, 3 or 4.)

Finally, you have to figure you have the best hand pre-flop 50%ish of the time. You should be seeing a lot more flops than that unless the other guy is posting an effective ape-shit-aggro blind by (re-)raising you way too often and/or for absurd amounts of money.

I suspect Lukie just isn't comfortable playing all of those hands and might be giving Gabe an even bigger edge by folding so darn much.

[jackvance]

lukie is a nit so i toss anything less than KQ on the turn. i probably dont have KQ or AQ though because of preflop check, although sometimes i would check KQ.

i think with a set i would try to get more in on the flop, but I never have TT or QQ on that flop because of preflop. QT i might try to get more money on flop too.

a straight i would probably hammer on the turn.

i think the river push is bad because i didn't check call you down with 8x because of your notoriously nitty image. i have T8 here alot, sometimes Q8 and even less missed KJ.

So you're saying Lukie should have called b/c a push is only getting called by a boat?

[Fnord]

So you're saying Lukie should have called b/c a push is only getting called by a boat?

...or make a smaller raise for value and usually fold to a push.

...or bluff more.

[theDEEPdish]

edit: sunsets are pretty

[midas06]

yes

[midas06]

Or value raise with intent to fold if pushed over (not sure about stack sizes here)

[gabe]

So you're saying Lukie should have called b/c a push is only getting called by a boat?

...or bluff more.

exactly, my range here is narrow vs lukienit

[johnnyBuz]

coke+vanilla vodka=good

red bull + everclear = good

[theDEEPdish]

everclear=death

[aislephive]

At first I thought the push was good, but I agree with gabe's assesment that he isn't calling lukie down with bottom pair here, he probably has two pair and rivered a boat. I like just a call here, I don't think folding is an option.

[Fnord]

I like just a call here, I don't think folding is an option.

Why not raise for value and to set-up small river-bluffs? If Lukie can get away from a push?

[aislephive]

I like just a call here, I don't think folding is an option.

Why not raise for value and to set-up small river-bluffs? If Lukie can get away from a push?

I don't see a point in raising for value and then folding to a push when you're giving yourself huge odds on a call. It's better to just call and try to show your hand down.

[gabe]

I don't see a point in raising for value and then folding to a push when you're giving yourself huge odds on a call. It's better to just call and try to show your hand down.

why dont you see the point?

the raise is for value

the push means he would be a lock to lose, screw pot odds

[aislephive]

I don't see a point in raising for value and then folding to a push when you're giving yourself huge odds on a call. It's better to just call and try to show your hand down.

why dont you see the point?

the raise is for value

the push means he would be a lock to lose, screw pot odds

That's my point, I don't think you're calling with enough worse hands to make a value raise. Yeah a push would definitely mean you have a boat, but I'd still just call instead of putting myself in that spot.

[Fnord]

That's my point, I don't think you're calling with enough worse hands to make a value raise.

If Lukie makes it another 30, then I think Gabe calls with a lot of worse hands.

[gabe]

but then again, im not taking that line with lots of worse hands. im not exagerrating how much of a nit i think lukie is.

[Miffed22001]

call

perhaps miniraise the river, maybe you could make it a real raise but then gabe prob pushes if he wants to call something other than a miniraise.
I hate pushing here when you have the option to call and a fairly solid player bets 1/2 the pot on the river.

[Lukie]

Everyone,

Raising this river and then folding to a push is (IMO) absurd and out of the question.

There's about 110 left on the river, he leads 30 into a 54 pot. Even if I make it the minimum of 60 straight, when he comes over the top with a push I'll be getting nearly 5:1, and anyone recommending I fold there HU is crazy. Stack size implications (given that it was a freezeout) would make it even more of a call.

FWIW I see merits to calling (probably the best play, especially given what he thinks of me), and raising with the intention of making a (crying) call on the end.

Also, on the subject of open-folding your button preflop in heads up games. Folding complete and utter trash should be standard, IMO. If you are playing against a weak player that will hardly ever raise his BB if you limp, and will check/fold every flop that he doesn't connect with, sure, folding preflop is terrible. But gabe isn't that player.

Also, don't make this mistake of correlating how I play in a full ring game with how I play heads-up. Sure I play tighter then most, but me folding 3 out of 6 times (i don't even need to mention sample size..) tells you pretty much nothing about my hu play at first glance other then I don't play every single hand (despite getting 3:1 with position yet you still have backwards implied odds with complete trash even IN position against a good player).

Fnord, best of 11 $100 HU freezeouts on stars? It's a friendly challenge from a nit and will be on the table indefinately.

[Fnord]

Fnord, best of 11 $100 HU freezeouts on stars? It's a friendly challenge from a nit and will be on the table indefinately.

I'll get back to you with a counter-offer (mostly due to rake.)

[gabe]

Everyone,

Raising this river and then folding to a push is (IMO) absurd and out of the question.

There's about 110 left on the river, he leads 30 into a 54 pot. Even if I make it the minimum of 60 straight, when he comes over the top with a push I'll be getting nearly 5:1, and anyone recommending I fold there HU is crazy. Stack size implications (given that it was a freezeout) would make it even more of a call.

calling getting 5:1 when you are absolutely always beat seems even more absurd

[gabe]

fnord/lukie, we need to set up some 200bb HU tournament similiar to what 2p2 had a while back.

[Fnord]

fnord/lukie, we need to set up some 200bb HU tournament similiar to what 2p2 had a while back.

Yeah, that's along the lines of what I was thinking. Lukie and I both know the other is good for the money so there is no need to give all the money to the guys who stock and regulate the fish ponds.

[dsaxton]

I'd play in a heads-up no limit tournament.

Probably just call the river bet. Lukie's line strongly suggests two pair or better, and so I don't think Gabe ever calls an all-in raise on the river without at least a full house himself.

Plus, the river lead by Gabe is a fairly strong play given the previous action (unless it's a horribly placed blocking bet, which I doubt, and even in that case, he's usually intending on folding to a raise anyways). A call on the river could almost be regarded as a crying call.

[gabe]

i had T8 for the win

[zenbitz]

Also, on the subject of open-folding your button preflop in heads up games. Folding complete and utter trash should be standard, IMO. If you are playing against a weak player that will hardly ever raise his BB if you limp, and will check/fold every flop that he doesn't connect with, sure, folding preflop is terrible. But gabe isn't that player.

There is no standard HU. You can also raise your trash from SB to steal blinds if he doesn't call every single time. I do agree that if BB wants to play ante ball and raises every time you limp then you can fold your worse hands. Easy guy to trap though.

I don't think the implied odds, reverse or otherwise are going to make much difference HU. TP is almost always good, so you only get screwed with trash hands if you both hit. Are you really going to lose alot of money with 74 on a Q42 flop?

[Trikflow77]

Fnord, best of 11 $100 HU freezeouts on stars? It's a friendly challenge from a nit and will be on the table indefinately.

I'll get back to you with a counter-offer (mostly due to rake.)

easy solution, play 1 dollar HU sngs on UB.....they have the best structure and it would cost you a buck a piece total in rake. Lukienit calling out fnord doesnt fit his nitty image .