QQ facing 3-bet out of blinds

[Lukie]

don't have the HH so I'm going to do it to the best of my memory.

1/2 6max, little over $200 eff stacks. Villain and I are complete unknowns to each other, but he seems to be ok in the few hands I've seen him fold, and neither of us seem to be getting out of line. I'm 12-tabling 6max without a HUD so my reads suck, but this guy is definately new. Never seen him and I've been sitting only for a short while.

I open to $8 on the button with black queens, villain pops me back to $26 from the SB. BB and limper both fold and we see a flop.

995, 2 spades. He leads for $40, I call. Offsuit turn rag checks through. River blanks and he leads for $100. I resist the urge of insta-calling like I normally do, think for a bit, and muck. How much I under-repped my hand to that point, and the fact that I opened on the button obviously strongly point toward a call, but this line is so rarely a bluff and I'm not so sure he's taking it on all 3 streets with worse hands with much frequency at all.

Thoughts?

[gabe]

worst fold ever

[gabe]

he could easily have JJ-TT here

[bdawg56kg]

Oh, the irony.

[Miffed22001]

lol

[aislephive]

I'd bet the turn for $60 I think and fold to a raise. As played, it's close but I lean towards a call.

[Lukie]

he could easily have JJ-TT here

could, but not likely

Most players in this game aren't 3-betting TT here preflop, and JJ is only getting 3-bet back at me some of the time. I think. I also wouldn't expect -most- players in this game to bet the river so strongly on such a thin edge, if he even has one. I expect to be shown AA/KK/air far more often then JJ/TT in this specific spot.

Given the way I played it, the call seemed so easy and automatic I actually began to click the button, then pulled away and gave it about 20 seconds of thought. The super-computer in my brain, with the little info I had on this opponent, told me something similar to what aislephive said about that it was close, except leaned toward a fold.

Keep in mind the general difference between stars and party games in that you won't find nearly as many loose cannons so to speak, at these levels.

[Lukie]

lol

good content, this is what I look for when I make posts of plays that are obviously very debatable, and in my eyes, close.

[benny999]

What about pushing over the flop bet and repping a draw...would JJ/TT/worse pairs call? I guess that's like johny_fish's strategy post.

And I get what you mean expecting to see bluff or AA/KK (even trip 9 except you said he's not "out of line") more then TT/JJ with that line/river bet. I would take this line w/ AA/KK hoping the check/push the turn. I guess I like aislephive line.

[andr3w321]

You might as well fold preflop if you fold that river.

[Miffed22001]

good content, this is what I look for when I make posts of plays that are obviously very debatable, and in my eyes, close.

bet the turn.
if he wants to play a big pot decide if you do or not.

I think this is ultra weak fwiw.

[aislephive]

You might as well fold preflop if you fold that river.

This isn't true.

[andr3w321]

How is any information gained from preflop to river? I think villain is perfectly capable of doing this with AK and TT-AA the exact same range he is willing to reraise with. You must bet or raise somewhere in the hand to find out where you stand. Preflop, flop turn all streets are options.

[IowaSkinsFan]

You at least should've folded the flop if you were folding the river. I agree you really didn't gain any info.

[bdawg56kg]

Lukie, I think you have to call this, the key being your button raise. If you raised utg or utg+1 and he still played back, then I think it's a lot closer. But QQ otb is a monster, and I'd have a very hard time laying it down w/o a good read.

I'm not sure how aggressively these party 200nl games play, but if it's your assumption that villian wouldn't take this check turn, bomb river line with air, then I think a turn bet here is a much better option than checking. You get value out of pocket pairs < QQ and charge any draws (and AK) he might have. If he plays back, then it's crunch time and you need to make a decision. If he does have AA/KK and c/r 's the turn and you decide to fold, you can get away cheaper (60-70 as opposed to 100).

[aislephive]

Oh, this was at Party? What is villain's sn?

[johnny_fish]

By checking the turn you underrepresented your hand way too much too make folding an option. It's a missed turn c/r with KK/AA sometimes but without a read he only 3-bets QQ+/AK preflop you can't fold this (fold preflop vs. this range).

[mcatdog]

All I'll say is I'm always astounded by the number of times a re-raise from an unknown opponent is KK or AA. Even when I've raised 5 of the last 10 pots and I'm sure I'm being played back at. That being said I insta-call.

[Renton]

I call and expect to see air more often than AA and KK, and the times he has JJ and TT is merely a bonus. He could've simply put you on a draw and bluffed a blank river.

[Lukie]

First, to clear things up, this was played on stars, and yes, I feel it makes a difference.

How is any information gained from preflop to river? I think villain is perfectly capable of doing this with AK and TT-AA the exact same range he is willing to reraise with. You must bet or raise somewhere in the hand to find out where you stand. Preflop, flop turn all streets are options.

Action I should take completely aside, I really disagree with your reasoning and line of thought here. First, we must weight the preflop range heavily towards the top end of the scale (QQ+). Second we must realize that we DO gain a LOT of info about villain's hand on various streets. He 3-bets out of the blinds, leads the flop (which I expect most players to do here the large majority of the time), checks through on the turn (if I was floating, this is when I'd strike), then leads strongly again on the river. I think it's safe to say that this line really defines villain's hands to far sides of the spectrum. He COULD be vb'ing JJ, but usually I think we're either beat or we're not (no comment on this please, you know what I mean).

I also extremely strongly disagree with betting or raising to 'find out where I stand'. Maybe for value, but not to see where I stand.

[Lukie]

What about pushing over the flop bet and repping a draw...would JJ/TT/worse pairs call? I guess that's like johny_fish's strategy post.

This has some merit and I definately considered it. In this particular situation though, I think he folds everything we beat and calls with everything we don't.

And I get what you mean expecting to see bluff or AA/KK (even trip 9 except you said he's not "out of line") more then TT/JJ with that line/river bet. I would take this line w/ AA/KK hoping the check/push the turn. I guess I like aislephive line.

I agree.. 3-betting AA/KK out of the blinds, leading the flop, and checking the turn is a very good line, particularly against players who love to put you on AK.

[Lukie]

You at least should've folded the flop if you were folding the river. I agree you really didn't gain any info.

I don't understand this line of thinking at all.

Can someone explain it to me?

[Lukie]

Lukie, I think you have to call this, the key being your button raise. If you raised utg or utg+1 and he still played back, then I think it's a lot closer. But QQ otb is a monster, and I'd have a very hard time laying it down w/o a good read.

good points. The part about QQ otb being a monster is something that can't be disputed, but that certainly changes when being faced with a 3-bet out of the blinds IF they have a very tight range doing so. Like if you open OTB and I repop you, QQ still looks really pretty. Against even some winning regulars though in the stars 1/2 and 2/4 games, I don't feel the same way.

I'm not sure how aggressively these party 200nl games play, but if it's your assumption that villian wouldn't take this check turn, bomb river line with air, then I think a turn bet here is a much better option than checking. You get value out of pocket pairs < QQ and charge any draws (and AK) he might have. If he plays back, then it's crunch time and you need to make a decision. If he does have AA/KK and c/r 's the turn and you decide to fold, you can get away cheaper (60-70 as opposed to 100).

Points taken, although it was the stars NL200 game which generally plays considerably tighter then the same game on party. Also, if I'm betting this turn, I don't intend on folding to a push. We're just too committed, unless we make a small probe bet, which is certainly an option.

[Muxy]

why are you 12 tabling and not using a HUD

[Lukie]

By checking the turn you underrepresented your hand way too much too make folding an option.

This was also my first impression. But I don't think too many stars 1/2 players are value betting worse hands here too often, so I'm not sure if I agree in this particular case.

It's a missed turn c/r with KK/AA sometimes but without a read he only 3-bets QQ+/AK preflop you can't fold this (fold preflop vs. this range).

Most players in these games don't have a range significantly wider then this in this particular spot. In fact, I see QQ/AK smooth called here far more often then I should. Also, hands like 99-JJ, AQish type hands aren't 3-bet back at me in this spot NEARLY enough.

[Lukie]

why are you 12 tabling and not using a HUD

pokertracker is a piece of shit

[gabe]

lukie, if you were villian, you would think that hero had a smaller pocket pair, so you would value bet JJ-TT on river.

[andr3w321]

I stand by folding pf if you fold here and your standard line is call flop, check/fold turn and river. You clearly believe that villain is only capable of 3-betting AA/KK/AK out of the blinds and you're basically letting AK see all 5 cards anyways so at best you're a coinflip at worst you are dominated. You might as well save yourself the $50.

[bair]

looks like you need to figure out if he was going for a c/r on the turn...which i dont think he was because the pot is so big and you have underrepped your hand so a check behind is too frequent. i think AKs checks this turn pretty often and almost never check-raises, as well as JJ and TT hoping for river value. i think you definitely have to call river and youll see AK, JJ, TT here more than not.

[IowaSkinsFan]

I don't narrow down opps range from the flop to the river. Nothing that opp does really changes my range on opp. He seems to have a relatively big range so I don't see why you would fold the river. I mean I feel like AK, JJ, TT you are beating, JJ and TT being the more likely of the two. AA and KK you are losing to. That range alone should be more than enough to give you the odds to call. I'd like you to explain your reasoning on thinking JJ-TT are not likely more in depth because I don't really get it.

Also the idea of raising for information would make sense especially if you feel like you're beat most of the time.

[IowaSkinsFan]

I don't narrow down opps range from the flop to the river. Nothing that opp does really changes my range on opp. He seems to have a relatively big range so I don't see why you would fold the river. I mean I feel like AK, JJ, TT you are beating, JJ and TT being the more likely of the two. AA and KK you are losing to. That range alone should be more than enough to give you the odds to call. I'd like you to explain your reasoning on thinking JJ-TT are not likely more in depth because I don't really get it. In full I'd be more inclined to support your reasoning but in 6 max I think the preflop 3-bet range is going to be increased a fair amount. It sucks that you don't have stats because it would make it a lot easier.

Also the idea of raising for information would make sense especially if you feel like you're beat most of the time.

[bdawg56kg]

I stand by folding pf if you fold here and your standard line is call flop, check/fold turn and river. You clearly believe that villain is only capable of 3-betting AA/KK/AK out of the blinds and you're basically letting AK see all 5 cards anyways so at best you're a coinflip at worst you are dominated. You might as well save yourself the $50.

Never did Lukie say that he thought villian's 3-betting range was ONLY AA/KK/AK. If that's the case, then it's a fold pf, and not even close. He's saying that villian would rarely take this RR pf, bet flop, check turn, bomb river line without AA/KK (whether or not I agree with this is besides the point).

Reads change with new information. If villian checks the flop, do you give him the same hand range as if he bets? What if he bets the flop, hero calls, and villian checks the turn versus pushes/bets? Same hand range? C'mon man think about what you're saying.

[andr3w321]

Reads change with new information.

I fail to see how any new information is gained how the hand is played. What I said was IF THIS IS HEROS STANDARD LINE then just fold preflop.You can't say OH HE BET TWICE and I called him once must be ACES OR KINGS!!1111 And yes villain would definitedly take that line with less hands when hero is repping 33-88 or a FD.

[gabe]

Never did Lukie say that he thought villian's 3-betting range was ONLY AA/KK/AK. If that's the case, then it's a fold pf, and not even close.

whaaaaaaaaaaat

[bair]

Never did Lukie say that he thought villian's 3-betting range was ONLY AA/KK/AK. If that's the case, then it's a call pf, and not even close.

FYP

why would you fold preflop if thats his range? spike a Q for $18 to win $200. i dont think villain is folding AA to an open push on a Q-high flop, let alone to standard play. and since you included AK you're even a favorite against one of the hands in his range.

[bdawg56kg]

Never did Lukie say that he thought villian's 3-betting range was ONLY AA/KK/AK. If that's the case, then it's a fold pf, and not even close.

whaaaaaaaaaaat

Okay, you got me. My bad.

[johnny_fish]

and since you included AK you're even a favorite against one of the hands in his range.

Irrelevant since you can't call the cbet.

Playing for set value vs. KK/AA is way more +EV than vs. KK/AA/AK.

[gabe]

and since you included AK you're even a favorite against one of the hands in his range.

Irrelevant since you can't call the cbet.

if you pay attention, sometimes you can spot bet sizes differences with missed cards and big pairs

[Miffed22001]

what is your reraise call range here lukie, and how often will you show down 99/88 vs missed AK.