100NL Limped pot with TPNK

[nogenius]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($100)
Hero ($119.25)
UTG ($92.50)
UTG+1 ($170.50)
UTG+2 ($110.45)
MP1 ($99)
MP2 ($208.98)
MP3 ($55)
CO ($50.95)
Button ($95)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7, T. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls $1, 2 folds, MP3 calls $1, 2 folds, SB (poster) completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($4) 3, 7, 6 (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $3, UTG+2 calls $3, MP3 folds, SB folds.

Turn: ($10) K (2 players)
Hero ???

---

Other players are unknowns.

Do you usually make the flop bet?

What's your move on the turn?

[Miffed22001]

i might c/c here depending on action but more likely just check/fold. Rarely do you need to get involved here with just a one pair/no draw hand imo.

[benny999]

I don't bet flop in this situation (early position, no reads, ~1/2 the deck is scary). My line here is check/fold flop, and lead a minority of turn cards.

[martindcx1e]

wow i bet this flop & turn i think lol

[Miffed22001]

wow i bet this flop & turn i think lol

bad place to play small ball.

if you call/raise more often from HJ/CO/Button and play small ball with the blinds itll do your image/winrate much more good than playing here will imo.

[martindcx1e]

at what point does your kicker become good enough for you to bet?

[pantherhound]

Routine check fold here.

Depending on number of players in the hand, I sometimes do this on the flop with middle or bottom pair OOP in a limped pot since it defines everyone else's hand and I can carry on according to the read on whoever comes along for the ride. This may be a leak though, a turned or rivered 2 pair or trips may not get paid enough to cover the times i don't improve or couldn't get the weak ones away from their hand if I follow up.

[bode]

i check the flop and lead the turn on a blank

[martindcx1e]

Routine check fold here.

Depending on number of players in the hand, I sometimes do this on the flop with middle or bottom pair OOP in a limped pot since it defines everyone else's hand and I can carry on according to the read on whoever comes along for the ride. This may be a leak though, a turned or rivered 2 pair or trips may not get paid enough to cover the times i don't improve or couldn't get the weak ones away from their hand if I follow up.

why would you bet middle/bottom pair and not top pair?

[martindcx1e]

i check the flop and lead the turn on a blank

what would you consider a blank with that board?

[samsonite2100]

It depends on the table, but I'm usually w/ Martin--I lead flop and turn here. I think Hero is good here a lot of the time and if your default line in these spots is check/fold, you're leaving a shit ton of money on the table. The nice thing about hands like these is they're no-brainer folds to any aggression from villains. You're never gonna lose your ass with T7.

[Miffed22001]

It depends on the table, but I'm usually w/ Martin--I lead flop and turn here. I think Hero is good here a lot of the time and if your default line in these spots is check/fold, you're leaving a shit ton of money on the table. The nice thing about hands like these is they're no-brainer folds to any aggression from villains. You're never gonna lose your ass with T7.

reverse implied odds.

That should explain why this pot isnt worth defending with T7. If you had a backdoor flush draw and good kicker say KT maybe QT id argue differently perhaps but certainly not here.

[pantherhound]

why would you bet middle/bottom pair and not top pair?

I meant I do that in addition to top pair

edit: After reading the responses I thought I had missed something, and i had, for some reason i thought the turn was 3 way.

in that case I bet this turn against some opponents, obv if its clear they're on a draw

[martindcx1e]

would those who say c/f flop bet the flop with A7 here?

[pantherhound]

don't think anyone said that, the turn play is under question here. potting this flop is standard. i would be much less inclined with a 'safe' rainbow board though.

[Miffed22001]

would those who say c/f flop bet the flop with A7 here?

If any other player does anything but fold you are scared. Hence your hand cant take pressure from tp raising in position, a draw raising in position a set/two pair raising for value. Also, if someone just calls with a draw can you really bet a blank turn? How do you know you arent out kicked, also how do you know you arent facing a typical set line that calls on the flop and raises the turn. Also how do you recognise a call with a flush draw from a call with a oesd draw (in other words which card is scary, a club or say a T?)

In other words you are putting money in the pot aainst a lot more ifs and buts than normal and you cant take anything from any other player but a fold. Thus c/f ing is the best option. By all means if the turn is a brick bet that pair but not on the flop.

It seems at the moment that we dont think about why we bet, we just do. Eg, people c-bet after raising preflop without thinking about why or even if they should. Same applies here. What does betting achieve? What does checking achieve better?
Just because you flopped a pair doesnt mean you have to insta-bet for protection. Sure, you want to get value from the best hand, but you dont want to get into situations that are avoidable to start with and will get you into sticky sitautions too often.

you're leaving a shit ton of money on the table

this is false imo. if anything your putting yourself in a position to put a shit ton of money on the table for someone else to take.

[martindcx1e]

don't think anyone said that, the turn play is under question here.

I don't bet flop in this situation (early position, no reads, ~1/2 the deck is scary). My line here is check/fold flop, and lead a minority of turn cards.

i thought others said it as well but , like you said, they're probably referring to turn action.

potting this flop is standard.

i didn't get that vibe from most

[martindcx1e]

would those who say c/f flop bet the flop with A7 here?

If any other player does anything but fold you are scared. Hence your hand cant take pressure from tp raising in position, a draw raising in position a set/two pair raising for value. Also, if someone just calls with a draw can you really bet a blank turn? How do you know you arent out kicked, also how do you know you arent facing a typical set line that calls on the flop and raises the turn. Also how do you recognise a call with a flush draw from a call with a oesd draw (in other words which card is scary, a club or say a T?)

In other words you are putting money in the pot aainst a lot more ifs and buts than normal and you cant take anything from any other player but a fold. Thus c/f ing is the best option. By all means if the turn is a brick bet that pair but not on the flop.

It seems at the moment that we dont think about why we bet, we just do. Eg, people c-bet after raising preflop without thinking about why or even if they should. Same applies here. What does betting achieve? What does checking achieve better?
Just because you flopped a pair doesnt mean you have to insta-bet for protection. Sure, you want to get value from the best hand, but you dont want to get into situations that are avoidable to start with and will get you into sticky sitautions too often.

so basically don't bet into multiway pots with hands that have bad showdown value?

[Miffed22001]

would those who say c/f flop bet the flop with A7 here?

If any other player does anything but fold you are scared. Hence your hand cant take pressure from tp raising in position, a draw raising in position a set/two pair raising for value. Also, if someone just calls with a draw can you really bet a blank turn? How do you know you arent out kicked, also how do you know you arent facing a typical set line that calls on the flop and raises the turn. Also how do you recognise a call with a flush draw from a call with a oesd draw (in other words which card is scary, a club or say a T?)

In other words you are putting money in the pot aainst a lot more ifs and buts than normal and you cant take anything from any other player but a fold. Thus c/f ing is the best option. By all means if the turn is a brick bet that pair but not on the flop.

It seems at the moment that we dont think about why we bet, we just do. Eg, people c-bet after raising preflop without thinking about why or even if they should. Same applies here. What does betting achieve? What does checking achieve better?
Just because you flopped a pair doesnt mean you have to insta-bet for protection. Sure, you want to get value from the best hand, but you dont want to get into situations that are avoidable to start with and will get you into sticky sitautions too often.

so basically don't bet into multiway pots with hands that have bad showdown value?

yes

or even better, dont bet hands that have poor showdown value oop/vs multiple opponents on dangerous boards.

Also, perhaps a mute point but worth mentioning. Your hand is marginal at best, but some of its ways to improve (i.e turn a ten) put you in a position where you will have a strong hand in a bad spot. While this isnt always the case for many hands, here it is so. If you turn two pair vs a straight where you will want to bet out again, you put a lot more in that you would have done before. Obviously this is diff if you have Q7 or something but still worth mentioning while not majorly important.

[martindcx1e]

or even better, dont bet hands that have poor showdown value oop/vs multiple opponents on dangerous boards.

yes, even better

[samsonite2100]

It depends on the table, but I'm usually w/ Martin--I lead flop and turn here. I think Hero is good here a lot of the time and if your default line in these spots is check/fold, you're leaving a shit ton of money on the table. The nice thing about hands like these is they're no-brainer folds to any aggression from villains. You're never gonna lose your ass with T7.

reverse implied odds.

That should explain why this pot isnt worth defending with T7. If you had a backdoor flush draw and good kicker say KT maybe QT id argue differently perhaps but certainly not here.

Yeah, but like I said, I don't think reverse implied odds are bad here since it's so easy to pitch this hand when facing any aggression. Honestly, with 4 players on the flop, I vary somewhat between checking and leading--depends on the table vibe, but on this turn, I'm always betting. This is one of those situations where we have no reason to think we're not ahead, and should act as if we are until told otherwise by villain.

[martindcx1e]

Yeah, but like I said, I don't think reverse implied odds are bad here since it's so easy to pitch this hand when facing any aggression. Honestly, with 4 players on the flop, I vary somewhat between checking and leading--depends on the table vibe, but on this turn, I'm always betting. This is one of those situations where we have no reason to think we're not ahead, and should act as if we are until told otherwise by villain.

ya i can def. see both sides of betting or not betting the flop, but as played i always bet the turn i think

[Miffed22001]

It depends on the table, but I'm usually w/ Martin--I lead flop and turn here. I think Hero is good here a lot of the time and if your default line in these spots is check/fold, you're leaving a shit ton of money on the table. The nice thing about hands like these is they're no-brainer folds to any aggression from villains. You're never gonna lose your ass with T7.

reverse implied odds.

That should explain why this pot isnt worth defending with T7. If you had a backdoor flush draw and good kicker say KT maybe QT id argue differently perhaps but certainly not here.

Yeah, but like I said, I don't think reverse implied odds are bad here since it's so easy to pitch this hand when facing any aggression. Honestly, with 4 players on the flop, I vary somewhat between checking and leading--depends on the table vibe, but on this turn, I'm always betting. This is one of those situations where we have no reason to think we're not ahead, and should act as if we are until told otherwise by villain.

Totally totally disagree. Just because we have a hand doesnt mean we need to protect it and put money in a pot we would like to keep small at the very best. On the turn we can half pot oop and force a lot of opponents to make mistakes chasing a draw we wont pay off anyway because the pot is so small. By betting the flop we inflate the pot so that draws are more interested because of pot size.
Sure, perhaps at these stakes people are going to chase anyway, but lets practice good ideas now even though we overrespect our opponents.
Also, there is nothing here to compete for. Its a four way limped pot.

[benny999]

Yeah, but like I said, I don't think reverse implied odds are bad here since it's so easy to pitch this hand when facing any aggression.

If the turn is a 4, 5, club, or an A...are you betting again? Or are you check folding? I don't think you are fully considering the positional disadvantage in this limped, multiway pot with no reads.

[samsonite2100]

Yeah, but like I said, I don't think reverse implied odds are bad here since it's so easy to pitch this hand when facing any aggression.

If the turn is a 4, 5, club, or an A...are you betting again? Or are you check folding? I don't think you are fully considering the positional disadvantage in this limped, multiway pot with no reads.

I thought we were talking about the hand in question. No, i'm obviously not betting retardedly draw-completed hands OOP.

[benny999]

Yea- about this hand...This time it was pretty much a non-scare card, but we were talking about when he bet the flop, was that a good decision.

The point I meant to make about oop here is if you bet flop with the plan to check fold to ~50% of turn/river cards - even if your hand still could be best - someone can easily take advantage of that (obviously less so if everyone is unaware call stations).