NL 50, KK preflop...

[RaoulDuke]

Guess u've seen a lot of questions regarding a simiular situation...but hopefully some of u feel like disscusing one more...

Just sat down 3 hands ago so no reads on him...

NL $50 No Limit Holdem - *** 09 21 19:18:10 2006
Table Graycliff (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 10: lizzy30 ( $54.9 )
Seat 1: trest ( $19.5 )
Seat 2: ivaren1 ( $27.58 )
Seat 3: LuckyP77 ( $40.5 )
Seat 4: katrin65 ( $18.86 )
Seat 5: mikeyyy1 ( $18 )
Seat 6: platan ( $78.3 )
Seat 7: iluvrivr ( $77.85 )
Seat 8: Rolle72 ( $48 )
Seat 9: Auronics ( $29.6 )
Auronics posts small blind [$0.25].
lizzy30 posts big blind [$0.5].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Rolle72 [ Kd Kc ]
trest folds.
ivaren1 folds.
LuckyP77 folds.
katrin65 folds.
mikeyyy1 folds.
katrin65 leaves
platan folds.
iluvrivr raises [$4].
Rolle72 raises [$8].
Auronics folds.
lizzy30 folds.
iluvrivr goes All-in [$73.85].
Rolle72 ???

Is my reraise PF to weak? His raise looks a bit odd....8 times BB with no limpers....is he hoping to pick up the blinds or does he actually have what he's repping? If I had a read telling me he's a complete donk....sure I'd call ...but know? What can I put him on exept AA or KK? I mean would he really make this move with say QQ or JJ or perhaps even AK?

When I reraised him, he instantly pushed all in...didn't even think about it for 2 seconds...

[Galapogos]

Your opponent is over excited to have AA and really wants to go all in. Fold.

[IowaSkinsFan]

i have to agree... i fold. Even though i thought i'd never say that without stats or a read.

[RaoulDuke]

Yeah....have to agree with you...and thats what I did, I folded...but still, I mean it's only 1 time in hundred when I have KK that some one has AA....

well any way, thanx for your input...

[nutsinho]

Yeah....have to agree with you...and thats what I did, I folded...but still, I mean it's only 1 time in hundred when I have KK that some one has AA....

well any way, thanx for your input...

no

[Numbr2intheWorld]

i don't agree, at all. Some people say that you shouldn't ever fold KK preflop at low stakes, and i agree. And that's with or without reads.

If you don't believe that, fine. But think about it, you are confused why he raised 8 BB. You know why he did, because he's retarded.

THERE'S YOUR READ, he's obvious stupid. Call, please Call.

[Fnord]

Full table KK runs into AA around 1 in 20 times (can't remember the exact number.)

[midas06]

make a real 3bet

[andy-akb]

make a real 3bet

His 3bet was to $12 which isnt that small of a 3bet.

But yea, you really shouldnt be folding this, thats just giving up so much EV.

[Turska]

If u got strong read fold. I actually folded KK yesterday
I got KK EP and raised 4x BB got 1 caller MP and Late
position regular 16/3 raised me 18xBB. I thought
for a while and decided to fold (I have tagged this
guy nut camper, he's a regular and I think he knows
me as well as I do him).

MP called him and played his AK to bitter end, he
even catched A on turn and went allin only to hit
the brickwall when LP showed up AA.

This is first and only KK I have folded this month.
Saved me my stack.

T.

[scarface737]

thats a difficult lay down if hes a huge donkey he could very easily be doing that with qq or ak

[WhooFleuryScores]

Preflop: reraise it to $15 so that you're actually making a real reraise. If he pushes then you can fold no regrets. Minraising doesn't tell anything. Sure it sucks to lose $15 but it's better then losing $50 as a 4-to-1 dog.

[silu73]

If you have KK then call because 4 out of 6 times I got dealt AA and got called by KK I lost.

[Wyvver]

Just yesterday I was in nearly the same situation:

I look down at KK and raise to 4xBB, player behind me goes all-in with half a buyin, everyone else folds.
I called and he had AA which held up.

I used to believe it was more or less always wrong to fold KK preflop, but I'm not so sure anymore.
Would someone push preflop in a cash game, with QQ, JJ, AK? Or let alone a worse hand? I dont really think so, maybe if he is tilting, but other than that?

To be honest though, I think I still couldnt lay down KK preflop.

[andy-akb]

Just because somebody makes a huge bet doesnt mean they have AA. Here is an example where my opponent who was unknown at the time open raised to over 20bbs preflop, I pushed with KK:
http://www.pokerhand.org/?519358

Disregard the results.

It is a little different because he didnt just push over my raise, but its the same general concept. A big bet often will be a "big hand" but a big hand is totally different to different players. Im sure my opponent thought he had the best hand there. Some players also will make huge bets with weak hands because they think they are getting tricky and saw somebody in the WSOP go all in with a bad hand once and win.

[Dislexsik]

Just yesterday I was in nearly the same situation:

I look down at KK and raise to 4xBB, player behind me goes all-in with half a buyin, everyone else folds.
I called and he had AA which held up.

I used to believe it was more or less always wrong to fold KK preflop, but I'm not so sure anymore.
Would someone push preflop in a cash game, with QQ, JJ, AK? Or let alone a worse hand? I dont really think so, maybe if he is tilting, but other than that?

To be honest though, I think I still couldnt lay down KK preflop.

If he has a half buy in it makes it even more easy to call his all in.

[djzcko]

Just yesterday I was in nearly the same situation:

I look down at KK and raise to 4xBB, player behind me goes all-in with half a buyin, everyone else folds.
I called and he had AA which held up.

I used to believe it was more or less always wrong to fold KK preflop, but I'm not so sure anymore.
Would someone push preflop in a cash game, with QQ, JJ, AK? Or let alone a worse hand? I dont really think so, maybe if he is tilting, but other than that?

To be honest though, I think I still couldnt lay down KK preflop.

If he has a half buy in it makes it even more easy to call his all in.

Gambool!

[RaoulDuke]

Shortstack pushing that much, It's easy call...but here it's a player thats actually made a 1/2 buyin....sure he could be a complete donk any way...but to the point...do u think i'm loosing ev by not calling here?

For the record I stayed at the table for around 50 hands...and the player who pushed seemed to be a solidplayer...semitight, neutural in his aggression factor...only thing is that he liked raising his good hands a bit more PF, than what's coomon.

[Galapogos]

Just because somebody makes a huge bet doesnt mean they have AA. Here is an example where my opponent who was unknown at the time open raised to over 20bbs preflop, I pushed with KK:
http://www.pokerhand.org/?519358

Sure you'll come across someone with a lesser holding on occassion. But do you think it's worth it in the long run? The rare time someone pushes full-stacked with AK or less? I really don't believe it's a good play.

KK may only run into AA 1 in 20 times or whatever the consensus is should not be used to justify calls like the one in question. How many times when KK gets all in preflop is it against AA? WAY more than 1 in 20. Maybe at places like Bodog (never played there but heard about it) it might be worthwhile but where I play, the OnGame network, those are the only two hands guys push the vast majority of the time preflop.

Maybe the min-raise encouraged a push from AK but guys aren't thinking like that at this level most of the time.

Would someone push preflop in a cash game, with QQ, JJ, AK? Or let alone a worse hand? I dont really think so, maybe if he is tilting, but other than that?

Despite all my advocating against KK pushing preflop I actually pushed QQ a couple days ago. There were a couple hyper aggressive guys at my table that were running pretty hot and winning a lot of pots through sheer aggression. On the hands they would get called down on they would be behind but always managed to catch up and win by the river. Basically these guys liked to gamb00l. It came down to myself and them preflop when I had QQ. First guy called I raised other guy called me then the first guy reraised. I knew this was a classic AA slowplay but these guys were doing shit like this with anything half-decent. I push, the late position guy calls and so does the ealry guy. And of course I remember one of the most basic rules of life, when somethings hot don't touch it. The smile quickly faded from my face as they flip over AA and KK respectively. Then as if that particular cock up the ass wasn't big enough they each improved hitting sets

[martindcx1e]

i don't agree, at all. Some people say that you shouldn't ever fold KK preflop at low stakes, and i agree. And that's with or without reads.

c'mon man - never fold even with a read? that makes no sense.

I should save what I'm about to say so I can just copy and paste in the future. If you can reasonably put your opponent on AA-QQ then your KK is 50% vs. their range. I'd say that many times the action suggests that AA is far more likely - like in the original hand posted. I think never folding KK is a leak.

Just because somebody makes a huge bet doesnt mean they have AA. Here is an example where my opponent who was unknown at the time open raised to over 20bbs preflop, I pushed with KK:
http://www.pokerhand.org/?519358

Players like that seem to be few and far between. People often remember hands like that one and convince themselves that most people push/call All-In with a wide range. The funny thing is that there are lots of times where people say to fold QQ because they're afraid of AA/KK but then if they hold KK in the same situation then their opponent magically has a huge pushing range.