200NL v Fnord

[Demiparadigm]

I am raising approximately any 2 when folded to me because no one is calling. I am making more at this table just picking up blinds than my normal win rate. That combined with the "maybe I'll flop something" factor puts me at near 100BB/100 when Fnord sits to my left. He has been at the table long enough to know what I am doing, and he has seen the crappy plays I tend to post on the forum.
Thoughts?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

CO ($212.65)
Fnord ($200)
SB ($142.80)
BB ($380.70)
UTG ($229.25)
Demi ($536.15)

Preflop: Demi is MP with 8, J.
1 fold, Demi raises to $6, 1 fold, Fnord calls $6, 2 folds.

Flop: ($15) 2, 9, J (2 players)
Demi bets $10, Fnord calls $10.

Turn: ($35) 5 (2 players)
Demi checks, Fnord bets $20, Demi raises to $50, Fnord calls $30.

River: ($135) T (2 players)
Demi checks... intending to call most bets.

[Fnord]

Thoughts?

Fnord play bad.

Demiparadigm's table read is worse. There was some pretty donktastic action at that table. Consider this a token of my appreciation for keeping the chips moving.

[Demiparadigm]

Good point.

The thing was more players were willing to fold preflop without a "playable" hand, but were willing to put A LOT of money in post flop with stuff I don't even call with.

for those who don't know my general style is horribly loose preflop, very loose on the flop, aggressive on the turn and tight/weak on the river. If I am playing back on the big streets, I usually have the nuts or close to it. (combined with some bets to float and steal) but my early splashing seems to get me a lot of undeserved action.

[alias2211]

i dont understand the size of your turn bet. are you actually trying to build the pot OOP with the $30 raise? seems like that is all a bet size like that would accomplish. an 8 kicker is a pretty thin edge when it's there so you must have a good read.

[bdawg56kg]

That turn c/r makes me sick. What are you hoping to accomplish with it? Sure, c/r the turn with an overpair/nuts or air, but NOT tpnk. You are inflating the pot with a hand that has a lot of showdown value, but can't take a lot of heat. C/c that turn all day, and probably c/c river too. As played, I'd fold to a significant river bet.

[dsaxton]

As has been said, the turn check-raise turns a showdownable hand into a complete bluff.

[Fnord]

What are you guys putting Fnord on?

The biggest problem I have with Demi's line is that he sets up Fnord to punish him harshly on the river.

[Ravageur]

What are you guys putting Fnord on?

The biggest problem I have with Demi's line is that he sets up Fnord to punish him harshly on the river.

Demi, no matter what your image is, why do you want to get into a confrontation with the only non-donk at the table with a vulnerable hand? You seem overly eager to give away whatever edge you had at the table to Fnord. Avoid Fnord (without some sort of hand) or try to sit on his left, and continue punishing the weaker players at the table. This obviously applies to when you're at a table with one other strong player and the rest being weak.

[Fnord]

Ravageur,

You're under the mistaken impression that this hand is either about money for both parties or exists in isolation of future inevitable confrontation between said players in the same fish pond.

[gabe]

Ravageur,

You're under the mistaken impression that this hand is either about money for both parties or exists in isolation of future inevitable confrontation between said players in the same fish pond.

why worry abuot metagame with 5 fish at the table?

[Fnord]

why worry abuot metagame with 5 fish at the table?

nh sir

Also, when Demi's in just about every other hand, avoiding him is absurd. We're gonna play some poker and his effective straddles are paying for the rake.

[alias2211]

why worry abuot metagame with 5 fish at the table?

i think i saw this on a bumpersticker once.

[Fnord]

No respect *shakes head*

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($76)
Fnord ($413.45)
Button ($200.35)
SB ($204.65)
BB (Demiparadigm) ($685.95)

Preflop: Demiparadigm is BB with 7 7.
1 fold, Fnord raises to $6, 2 folds, BB (Demiparadigm) calls $4.

Flop: ($13) 6, Q, 3(2 players)
Demiparadigm checks, Fnord bets $9, Demiparadigm calls $9.

Turn: ($31) T(2 players)
Demiparadigm checks, Fnord checks.

River: ($31) 6(2 players)
Demiparadigm checks, Fnord bets $20, Demiparadigm calls $20.

[gabe]

i think you flipped the turn and river actions

[Demiparadigm]

Ravageur,

You're under the mistaken impression that this hand is either about money for both parties or exists in isolation of future inevitable confrontation between said players in the same fish pond.

Now we're on track. If I wanted to discuss the merits of opening J80 or the EV of a turn checkraise or the showdown value of top pair in isolation, I would not have given so extensive a backround.

We all know J8 is a weak hand with showdown value. Raising it preflop from my position I am pretty sure is -EV.
Offering my opponent a free card with a vulnerable, probably best hand is far from the textbook play.

No one has specifically questioned yet the size of the check raise- $30 on a $20 bet into a $35 pot.

Then the river check with the intention of calling.

What are you guys putting Fnord on?

The biggest problem I have with Demi's line is that he sets up Fnord to punish him harshly on the river.

No one has answered yet about what they put Fnord on.
On a different river card I may bet, or check /fold (probably bet).

Also, the amount I am willing to call changes. My goals here are to
A) Make a profit
B)Set a precedent

I am trying to find a balance.

[Demiparadigm]

Avoid Fnord (without some sort of hand) or try to sit on his left, and continue punishing the weaker players at the table.

Also, when Demi's in just about every other hand, avoiding him is absurd. We're gonna play some poker and his effective straddles are paying for the rake.

Two very important considerations.

PT has my stats for this session at 60/30 or so. As Fnord says, I am the one paying the rake.

1) The position that Fnord is in is actually the one I would want him in most. coincidentally, Fnord's in just about his perfect position too.

The important thing is that I have position in any blind confrontations.
In the rare case that he decides to come in when he has position, It probably doesn't matter. When I am raising 30%, His range is so far ahead of mine that the specific values are immaterial.
Either A) I flop something, cbet and keep betting
or B) I don't flop something, cbet, then search for a good scare card or fold.

He has adjusted though, and with all my raising, I have his VPIP at over 20%.
Confrontations are going to happen often.

What can I do so that I can come out ahead, or at least minimize my losses to him, while continuing to control the table?

[Ravageur]

Ravageur,

You're under the mistaken impression that this hand is either about money for both parties or exists in isolation of future inevitable confrontation between said players in the same fish pond.

I never meant to say that you, Fnord, should avoid Demi. Au contraire, I think that Demi should avoid you. I don't have any beef with you wanting to get into a pot here in position against someone with Demi's stats.

[Ravageur]

Avoid Fnord (without some sort of hand) or try to sit on his left, and continue punishing the weaker players at the table.

Also, when Demi's in just about every other hand, avoiding him is absurd. We're gonna play some poker and his effective straddles are paying for the rake.

Two very important considerations.

PT has my stats for this session at 60/30 or so. As Fnord says, I am the one paying the rake.

1) The position that Fnord is in is actually the one I would want him in most. coincidentally, Fnord's in just about his perfect position too.

The important thing is that I have position in any blind confrontations.
In the rare case that he decides to come in when he has position, It probably doesn't matter. When I am raising 30%, His range is so far ahead of mine that the specific values are immaterial.
Either A) I flop something, cbet and keep betting
or B) I don't flop something, cbet, then search for a good scare card or fold.

He has adjusted though, and with all my raising, I have his VPIP at over 20%.
Confrontations are going to happen often.

What can I do so that I can come out ahead, or at least minimize my losses to him, while continuing to control the table?

You can tighten up your range just a little PF, but in general you don't need to make all that many changes PF. The way this hand played out is what you want to avoid. It just happened to turn out that Fnord was making a move and you caught him. Were I to put Fnord on a range it would be Q10 or AJ. I think he checks behind with AJ though.

Regarding the metagame of it all, I agree with gabe that you should forget about metagame with the one solid player at the table and worry more about keeping your monies so that you have enough to cover the fishies. I don't mean to avoid Fnord entirely, I just mean avoid playing a big pot with him with with a junk hand.

[Demiparadigm]

If I wanted to play video poker, I can find a strategy chart for jacks or better with 100% return.
We're not talking about ensuring profits, we are trying to maximize them.

As I mentioned earlier, I am avoiding Fnord for the most part, by check folding most hands that I am in with him.
But if Fnord knows that I will give up on the turn when I miss, he can profitably call any flop bet with the intention of folding the turn when I bet or betting the turn when I check.

I am sure Fnord understood that you were implying that I should avoid him. His point is that confrontation is inevitable.

Do you think my check raise is + or - EV?
What is the EV difference between a check raise and a check call?
But most importantly, how does this hand affect future hands that I check on the turn?

[Ravageur]

As others have already said, your turn c/r is a complete bluff, and he's folding any worse hand and calling with any better ones. Check calling turn and river are the only way to stay in this hand in my opinion because you beat his bluff.

[gabe]

as far as putting fnord on a hand goes, i think his range is too wide. after he started hinting at metagame in the thread, i can think of many hands he might play like this from a draw to top set to pure air. thats why demi's turn raise is so bad, because fnord's range is so wide.

[Fnord]

Fnord checks behind with A 9

Given the way it played out a weak Jx was about the last hand I expected to see here for reasons already mentioned.

I told ya I play bad.

[DaHorror]

So the turn CR also buys a free showdown if Fnord doesn't improve... It looks like Fnord has a pair...could be 66, could be 9x...he's floating the flop and then bets into the turn feign weakness/pot control check by Demi.
Interesting hand.

[Fnord]

It looks like Fnord has a pair

I asked what people put me on and no one bit.

[gabe]

It looks like Fnord has a pair

I asked what people put me on and no one bit.

yea because theres so many hands like the one you ended up having.

i would reraise preflop with A9h alot vs demi. i would be reraising him alot with big cards in position and let him make those big call downs. also i dont think i bet the turn, and if i did i sometimes might push over his raise.

[Demiparadigm]

i would reraise preflop with A9h alot vs demi. i would be reraising him alot with big cards in position and let him make those big call downs. also i dont think i bet the turn, and if i did i sometimes might push over his raise.

This is by far the best way to play against me, and the only thing that will make me tighten up significantly, or more probably leave the table.

As I mentioned, I don't like to call big bets without a big hand.

[Fnord]

I considered the re-raise-a-lagtard approach. However (outside of the annoying button raises), I liked what Demi was doing for the table texture.

[midas06]

Fnord, what's your 3betting range then? If someone gets over laggy like that it seems like an easy 3b pf. Is it worth letting demi run you over to maintain your own image for the fish at the table?

[Fnord]

Fnord, what's your 3betting range then?

Very situational.

Is it worth letting demi run you over to maintain your own image for the fish at the table?

Demi was building pots and re-enforcing loose/passive play by others at the table. Not wanting to stop Christmas has nothing to do with my image.

[aislephive]

Demi why are all of your threads retarded spews?