Question for Gabe and other highstakers

[Renton]

I hope this will generate some decent discussion.

Why do Gabe and successful nl ring players go so far out of their way to make thin calldowns and valuebets, but rarely make big laydowns?


Isn't EV EV, no matter where it comes from?

I am speaking in reference to a number of HH posts where someone has bottom set or AA or something, and is facing tons of action. He posts the hand to see if he could have gotten away and Gabe or ilikeaces will reply that it was a clear call, and there was no way to get away from the hand.

Then next thing I know, I see a Gabe HH post where he's calling down his whole stack with AK high.

Aren't these calldowns just as thin as when people fold AA to a bet/threebet all in on a J83 flop?

Just curious what the difference is.

[DaNutsInYoEye]

Get rid of your HUD.

[Renton]

sigh

thanks for the enlightening response

[Bmxicle]

Cause high stakes games are incredibly aggressive, therefore there is rarely a need to fold a big hand, but there can be a need to call witha shitty one.

You answered your own question really, Ev is Ev, and in high stakes games there aren't as many situations where you need to make a big fold for only 100bb.

[Renton]

Cause high stakes games are incredibly aggressive, therefore there is rarely a need to fold a big hand, but there can be a need to call witha shitty one.

You answered your own question really, Ev is Ev, and in high stakes games there aren't as many situations where you need to make a big fold for only 100bb.

that makes perfect sense

thanks

[Toadstool]

A lot depends in image as you move up in stakes. At the higher levels people will be paying much closer attention and will recognise if you are playing LAG, the good LAGS know that their opponants know this and so know that they will be facing a lot more plays, or people will value bet with a lot worse, they may value bet 2nd pair thinking that it is ahead of the LAG's likely range. However renton is right about the +EV being +EV in the fact that if you think you are beat just fold, doesnt matter if you have bottom set or AA etc, there will always be better spots.

[elipsesjeff]

One thing I miss about the Higher Stakes games (I.E. the LHE ones I used to play) is that usually calling down is never wrong, especially against good players and you have a marginal hand. It is when you start making those 'good laydowns' that you start to lose whatever edge you have. This is the problem for me at lowerstakes games, in that I am so used to thinking on a higher level, I outthink myself and therefore give too much credit to my opponent. You're like: "thats the most retarded line i've ever seen why would he do that with....oh, a set." Sometimes I think some of the (really)good players are predicatbly unpredictable wherease the lower stakes teh players are more unpredictably predictable.

I really have found no solution to this, yet.

[gabe]

However renton is right about the +EV being +EV in the fact that if you think you are beat just fold, doesnt matter if you have bottom set or AA etc, there will always be better spots.

if you think you are beat 90% of the time, there can still be spots where you cant fold to a river bet

[Iwind]

Like mentioned your image is certainly very important, with a loose image you can't make big lay downs as people will play back at you with weak holdings. Say just a big overpair, on a drawheavy flop I would very rarely fold to an all in only 100bb deep, if I run into a set or two pair, too bad. Again this depends on your opponents image too though.

One advantage with 3-betting a wide range preflop in my opinion, is that you don't have to make these big laydowns. That's a huge leak I had when I was playing 400/600NL, I would only 3-bet AA/KK/QQ/AK preflop. Thinking players figured this out of course and only called me with pp and either folded flop or stacked me with a set. When playing tight however, you have to be able to make these tough laydowns, I don't really have much experience playing tight but I would think it would be quite difficult finding the right spots to make these big laydows in.

I believe making smaller laydowns might be more important however, figuring out when to call, fold, value bet or bluff with those standard ~20bb bets on the river makes up for a lot money long term. I've noticed that in tough 10/20 games that I just bleed chips this way slowly cause I'm not making good enough decisions here, and that kinda sucks.