First HH's on FTP, AA and KK ev- for now

[mixchange]

Getting Hand History Information...
----------------------------------------------------------------

Hand #36190134-9687 at Flint (No Limit Hold'em)
Started at 01/Nov/06 18:23:49

ookie is at seat 0 with $91.85.
HERO is at seat 1 with $105.60.
time4bb is at seat 2 with $98.45.
kimbamdg is at seat 3 with $59.70.
pool4ever is at seat 4 with $42.20.
Hustler2727 is at seat 5 with $106.65.
The button is at seat 2.

kimbamdg posts the small blind of $.50.
pool4ever posts the big blind of $1.

ookie: -- --
HERO: Kh Ks
time4bb: -- --
kimbamdg: -- --
pool4ever: -- --
Hustler2727: -- --

Pre-flop:

Hustler2727 calls. ookie calls. HERO raises
to $5.50. time4bb calls. kimbamdg folds.
pool4ever calls. Hustler2727 calls. ookie folds.


Flop (board: Js Jd 7s):

pool4ever bets $5.50. Hustler2727 folds.
HERO folds. time4bb calls.

Turn (board: Js Jd 7s 7c):

pool4ever checks. time4bb checks.

River (board: Js Jd 7s 7c 2c):

pool4ever checks. time4bb checks.



Showdown:

pool4ever shows As 9s.
pool4ever has As Js Jd 7s 7c: two pair, jacks and sevens.
time4bb shows Qd Qs.
time4bb has Qd Qs Js Jd 7s: two pair, queens and jacks.

I folded KK here. Smart to be fearful? They did call a big raise, so I could easily see AJ, or pocket 7's (at least when the flop hit). Now with jacks and seven's out, I know a 7 or J beats me. I realize it was dumb to fold now to a half-pot size bet (I've been getting killed on KK, AA lately) but what should my thought process be like on a hand like this?

----------------------------------------------------------------
Ultimate Bet
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50./$1.
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) HERO is UTG with K K
HERO raises to $3.5, 3 folds, SB calls $3 (pot was $5), BB folds.

Flop: 4 A 3 ($8, 2 players)
SB checks, HERO checks.

Turn: J ($8, 2 players)
SB bets $5, HERO calls $5 (pot was $13).

River: T ($18, 2 players)
SB checks, HERO checks.

Results:
Final pot: $18

Showdown:

Showdown:

cantbluff shows Ah 8c.
cantbluff has Ah 8c Ad Jc Tc: a pair of aces.
HERO mucks cards.
(HERO has Kh Kc.)

Should I always quit on KK when an A hits? Looking back, his betting pattern makes sense for what he had -- a weak ace.

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Ultimate Bet
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.5/$1.
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) HERO is SB with A A
UTG calls $1 (pot was $1.5), 2 folds, HERO raises to $3, BB calls $2 (pot was $4.5), UTG calls $2 (pot was $6.5).

Flop: 4 4 6 ($9, 3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, HERO checks.

Turn: 5 ($9, 3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $3, HERO calls $3 (pot was $12), BB calls $3 (pot was $15).

River: Q ($18, 3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, HERO checks.

Results:
Final pot: $18


Champ5 shows Td 8d.
Champ5 has Td 8d 4d 6d 5d: flush, ten high.
chuckjb mucks cards.
(chuckjb has 7d Js.)
HERO mucks cards.
(HERO has Ah Ad.)

I know I blew this hand by not betting on the flop. Always bet the flop with AA and see 'where you are'. I think he would have called anyway, though. HE probably woulda turned up the heat on the turn though if i had bet, and I would have figured it out then. Problem was that 2 players stayed in, and lately I've seen some trash hands call $3 raises at UB, so I was a bit worried about 4 or a decent hand like 66. Unfounded fears?

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Ultimate Bet
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50./$1.
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) HERO is SB with 7 5
3 folds, Button calls $1 (pot was $1.5), HERO calls $0.5 (pot was $2.5), BB checks.

Flop: 4 9 A ($3, 3 players)
HERO checks, BB bets $3, Button folds, HERO calls $3 (pot was $6).

Turn: J ($9, 2 players)
HERO checks, BB bets $9, HERO calls $9 (pot was $18).

River: 8 ($27, 2 players)
HERO checks, BB bets $27, HERO calls $27 (pot was $54).

Results:
Final pot: $81

Showdown:

Palad1n shows Qd 8d.
Palad1n has Qd 8d 9d Ad Jd: flush, ace high.
HERO mucks cards.
(HERO has 7d 5d.)

Called on Flop based on implied odds. Had him on the ace, but not the flush draw. What do you think? Should I never play suited connectors this low? I only called because I was in the SB, felt I had odds to call, then implied odds if I hit the flush is why I called the flop bet, thinking he would raise with top pair, not a draw. I think my play was fine, except for calling the river bet. Shoulda figured that one out -- too much money.

[Margin Of Error]

http://www.neildewhurst.com/hand-converter/

[mixchange]

Hi Margin,

I can't get Ultimate Bet HH's to work with Neil's hand converter. It doesn't get any of the player's $$ amounts or betting $$s, or final pot amount.

FTR's http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php doesn't work either.

I used MS's Word to find/replace my name to "Hero" like the converters do.

Any ideas?

[Margin Of Error]

The one I posted works for me. You need to set output to FTR and make sure you type 'Hero' where it says Required - Alias.

Ultimate Bet
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50./$1.
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with K K
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises to $5.5, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds.

Flop: J J 7 ($23.5, 4 players)
BB bets $5.5, UTG folds, Hero folds, Button calls.

Turn: 7 ($34.5, 2 players)
BB checks, Button checks.

River: 2 ($34.5, 2 players)
BB checks, Button checks.

Results:
Final pot: $34.5

[mixchange]

Thanks Margin, I got it to work. The problem was the top one I didn't save the showdown info, so it wouldn't convert. The others did.

[TerryToma]

bet the flop with your AA hand 446 flop.

[Blinky]

1.

Ugh. There are TONS of hands that might bet that flop... and you're folding to a 1/3 pot probe bet? Ugh again. What does that flop texture tell you?

Well, 77 and Jx have you toasted. However, it's far less likely that anybody has a piece of that flop (there's one less "piece" to catch). Similarly, a preflop caller holding a mid pocket pair might think they have the best hand.

1/3 pot lead is way weak. You probably have the best hand on this flop - this should just about be an autoraise... say better part of pot. You should thin out the field or might even with the pot with a raise right here. Remember that you don't want TOO much action with big pairs.

Regarding this:

They did call a big raise, so I could easily see AJ, or pocket 7's

Sure. But how many other "reasonable" hands might call your preflop raise yet be way behind you right now? Let's see...
QQ JJ TT 99 88 66 55 44 33 22 AK AQ ... the list goes on and on....

2.

This is fine... KK shouldn't be an autofold on a K-high flop. Much will depend on your read of your opponent.

3.

Why aren't you betting that flop? There are tons of preflop hands like 77-KK that you can extract tons of money from. Not only that, but you have to bet to make draws pay to chase. Make sure that you bet a sufficient amount.

4.

You are calling potsize bets, OOP, to chase a flush. Do this only if you don't like money. BTW, flushes are NOT good implied-odds hands. Flushes are the easiest thing in the world to spot.

I generally avoid playing drawing hands out of position.

-------

From these hand histories, it appears that you are a very passive player. This is not a good thing: you let people draw for cheap, you don't make enough money when you have a big hand and the only way you'll ever win is when you have better cards.

Ramp up the aggression a bit, and stop playing scared.

[martindcx1e]

The one I posted works for me. You need to set output to FTR and make sure you type 'Hero' where it says Required - Alias.

Ultimate Bet
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.50./$1.
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with K K
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises to $5.5, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds.

Flop: J J 7 ($23.5, 4 players)
BB bets $5.5, UTG folds, Hero folds, Button calls.

Turn: 7 ($34.5, 2 players)
BB checks, Button checks.

River: 2 ($34.5, 2 players)
BB checks, Button checks.

Results:
Final pot: $34.5

OMG don't ever fold the flop here!

[mixchange]

I think I have a real problem when I am dealt the premium hands it throws me off my game. On that same hand with KK and a JJ7 flop if I had 88 or a pair of 7's i bet I call!

What I am afraid of is what I've blown almost all my winnings on - getting too involved in an AA, KK, QQ hand and losing a bundle. Which is exactly what I did today. I raised 4x, raised pot on flop, all in on turn and lost to a set of 8's that hit the flop.

I need to get to that middle ground somehow, it seems like I am always making the wrong move at the wrong time with the premium hands. AA, KK, QQ, even AK isn't so good for me. I tend to get paid on suited connectors and smaller pp hitting sets.

From these hand histories, it appears that you are a very passive player. This is not a good thing: you let people draw for cheap, you don't make enough money when you have a big hand and the only way you'll ever win is when you have better cards.

Ramp up the aggression a bit, and stop playing scared.

OK, I will try that. I agree, I think I am playing a bit scared right now, especially with the big PP. I play them either too strong or too weak.

I have been ultra-conservative as of late because I tried a looser style for awhile which initially worked but the variance was high and I couldn't deal with it and I almost went broke. I switched to ultra conservative, only looking for to get paid on top hands like FH, Str8, set, and I picked up $500 overnight. OF course, I am now down $150 in the last 24, same style. The great thing about being aggro was I got a healthy share of blinds and bluffed pots that I could wait around for that monster. Being conservative I tend to lose $20 at the table before I make anything, which is tough. I think I may be getting too caught up in day to day variances.

So far with other hands a good indicator of whether I will win the hand is the strength of my hand relative to pot size. How big of a pot should I be taking with AA or KK? Thinking about it, I guess you really only beat another pair, so not very big unless you hit a set or something. Should I expect to just take down an average pot size, or even less?

[martindcx1e]

I raised 4x, raised pot on flop, all in on turn and lost to a set of 8's that hit the flop.

this is not good. you should not be open pushing turns most of the time with an overpair (or anything else really). if you bet normal (which is NOT a pot sized bet) then he most likely would've raised you, and you'd know you're probably in trouble. if you pay off sets every time you have an overpair then you are just trading chips in the longrun with those people that you stack with your set vs. their overpair.

[mixchange]

How much do I bet then? Half pot to get info? Is it all about sending feeler bets with overpairs?

I know my push on the turn was totally stupid, but I had been playing so passively I made the error of going too far the opposite way. I thought maybe he had top pair and a flush draw and I wanted him out.

[martindcx1e]

I thought maybe he had top pair and a flush draw and I wanted him out.

here's where your thinking needs to change. you DON'T want him out. you want to bet an amount that he will call while still giving incorrect pot odds. you make money by making your opponents make mistakes. it's OK to get drawn out on as long as you don't pay it off when it happens.

[mixchange]

So what type of bet do you suggest? Half the pot instead of full pot?

What kind of pots should I expect to take with 'just top pair'? So far I make all my money on suited connectors and smaller pp that hit sets. If I can get the AA, KK play under control I will have improved a lot. Do you know of any detailed basic strategies I can read that you would reccomend (I know I can google a million pages, but quality is sometimes tough to find)?


btw, all these replies are really helping me think so thanks. I usually have good control when I understand a situation well (folding when I know I am beat) but I have trouble with my own large bets. Either I bet too large and scare someone off, or I get painted by the big hand. I guess in these situations I should play to the weaker hand, betting something he would call, and if I get re-raised fold. The more I think about it, I think you are right that my bets are too large. In lots of these situations I get into with a PP I bet something that a weak hand would usually fold to and only a hand that has me dominated calls. I have it in the back of my mind that I need to "protect" my hand against draws or a pp hitting a set, but my bet amount is just too much. I should do something like 1/2 the pot after the flop to see where they are, and base my turn play on how they bet the flop.

Correct?

[martindcx1e]

So what type of bet do you suggest? Half the pot instead of full pot?

What kind of pots should I expect to take with 'just top pair'? So far I make all my money on suited connectors and smaller pp that hit sets. If I can get the AA, KK play under control I will have improved a lot. Do you know of any detailed basic strategies I can read that you would reccomend (I know I can google a million pages, but quality is sometimes tough to find)?


btw, all these replies are really helping me think so thanks. I usually have good control when I understand a situation well (folding when I know I am beat) but I have trouble with my own large bets. Either I bet too large and scare someone off, or I get painted by the big hand. I guess in these situations I should play to the weaker hand, betting something he would call, and if I get re-raised fold. The more I think about it, I think you are right that my bets are too large. In lots of these situations I get into with a PP I bet something that a weak hand would usually fold to and only a hand that has me dominated calls. I have it in the back of my mind that I need to "protect" my hand against draws or a pp hitting a set, but my bet amount is just too much. I should do something like 1/2 the pot after the flop to see where they are, and base my turn play on how they bet the flop.

Correct?

you usually can't go wrong betting between 1/2 - 3/4 of the pot every time you bet. good to see you are understanding, and not being really defensive. that's cool

[Blinky]

mix.

You have tons of great questions. Before going further though, have you read either of the following?! They're required reading.

Bankroll management (I'm guessing you're underrolled):
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...poker-4971.htm

Newbie Circle o' Def:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...poker-9214.htm

You are asking about appropriate bet size. Well, the answer, as always in NLHE is... it depends.

You should start by developing a fundamental understanding of pot odds. Doing so will help you in your quest to correctly size your bets (ie, making the correct size bet to give potential draws improper expressed odds).

[mixchange]

You are right I am playing above my roll. I should drop down a limit. I deposited 500 and got 500 I'm earning pretty quick, so is that considered 1000 or 500. I am willing to committ more money to poker than that, but not quite sure how much more. I had been a losing player for a couple months at 25max and recently moved up and ran into a few lucky rushes at 100 and 200. It feels hard now to move down. What I wonder is if I am getting close to being a winner at 100, why move down? I worry play is different and I will have to adjust, then re-adjust moving up. Where do you think I should I be playing? At 20 buy ins, I think it probably is 50.

I do consider pot odds, but I realized I am only considering them when on a draw, or if a draw is out. It may sound dumb, but for some reason I haven't been thining much about pot odds otherwise. I know poker is all about ev in a given situation, so I don't know why I haven't been making this calculation.

Thanks for all the help.

[martindcx1e]

What I wonder is if I am getting close to being a winner at 100, why move down?

Winning players hit downswings too. You need an adequate bankroll to support those times.