QQ in Blind Battle w/ K on Flop

[martindcx1e]

Standard?

50NL - 9 Players

No reads

Hero is BB ($50) with
Villain is SB ($50)

Pre-Flop
UTG calls .50
Villain calls .25
Hero raises to $2.50
UTG folds
Villain calls $2

Flop (2 Players, Pot = $5.50)


Villain checks
Hero checks

Turn (2 Players, Pot = $5.50)


Villain checks
Hero checks

River (2 Players, Pot = $5.50)


Villain bets $5.50
Hero calls $5.50

[NLHE lahooozaher]

I usually check flop and bet turn if checked to and usually bet the river as well. If he bets turn I obv. call turn and river bets against most opponents.

[givememyleg]

I bet the flop. If you do choose to check it, bet the turn!

[martindcx1e]

I bet the flop. If you do choose to check it, bet the turn!

i didn't bet flop cuz i feel like i'm probably only called when i'm beat unless villain likes drawing to gutshots or something.

[Pelion]

I usually check flop and bet turn if checked to and usually bet the river as well. If he bets turn I obv. call turn and river bets against most opponents.

I like this.

If he bets turn and then makes a scary looking river bet too im probably gunna give up though. Could easily have been trying to find out where he was on the flop with a K or checkraise.

[Numbr2intheWorld]

i bet the flop, but you can go either way, i understand your logic.

The turn is a mandatory bet though.

[Pelion]

i bet the flop, but you can go either way, i understand your logic.

The reason I dont like a flop bet is that I dont want a lower pair than Kings to fold. He most likely has a small PP or the pair of Kings here. If we bet the flop theres a good chance he folds the small pairs (or middle pair type thing). If we check and bet the turn he is very unlikely to catch up but hes also now much more likely to call a bet.
We lose just as much to a K by betting the flop / checking turn as we do by checking the flop/ betting the turn but checking the flop gets us more value from worse hands.

We dont have to worry too much about betting to protect our hand here since theres a good chance we are already behind and if we are ahead then villain probably only has 2 outs (5 at most).

[nutsinho]

standard against opps who will take a stab versus weakness
if villain is loose passive, bet the turn

[martindcx1e]

i bet the flop, but you can go either way, i understand your logic.

The reason I don't like a flop bet is that I dont want a lower pair than Kings to fold. He most likely has a small PP or the pair of Kings here. If we bet the flop theres a good chance he folds the small pairs (or middle pair type thing). If we check and bet the turn he is very unlikely to catch up but hes also now much more likely to call a bet.
We lose just as much to a K by betting the flop / checking turn as we do by checking the flop/ betting the turn but checking the flop gets us more value from worse hands.

good point.

[Miffed22001]

bet the flop.
You have position to check behind on the turn and figure out what opp has from his river bet. You also need to bet here to make it omg so obvious that you dont have a king, unless you are willing to check behind when you have AA/AK/KK here (which generally sucks as you arent going to win a large pot too often)
Your hand has showdown value and we want to show it down, so id either bet the flop and then the turn folding to a raise or bet the flop check the turn and decide if the price is right on the river.
A number of hands are going to think you have very little and will look you up on the river. 88/99/TT for starters.

Also, FWIW, i think a lot of medium pps look up the flop continuation bet because while you can nearly always rep a Qxx flop against decent opponents you rarely can get away with the same trick on Kxx, and i think more often than not betting two streets gives us value on QQ versus a lot of weaker hands.

[Pelion]

You also need to bet here to make it omg so obvious that you dont have a king, unless you are willing to check behind when you have AA/AK/KK here (which generally sucks as you arent going to win a large pot too often)

Ill still bet TT-22 on this flop (maybe even JJ) so its not like im only ever betting the nuts here. The difference between QQ and TT here is that with QQ you wouldnt mind seeing a J on the turn. With TT there are alot more cards that scare you and a lot more ways he might catch up so Id rather take it down here.

[martindcx1e]

You also need to bet here to make it omg so obvious that you dont have a king, unless you are willing to check behind when you have AA/AK/KK here (which generally sucks as you arent going to win a large pot too often)

Ill still bet TT-22 on this flop (maybe even JJ) so its not like im only ever betting the nuts here. The difference between QQ and TT here is that with QQ you wouldnt mind seeing a J on the turn. With TT there are alot more cards that scare you and a lot more ways he might catch up so Id rather take it down here.

ya, i think showdown value is a big factor when deciding whether to cbet or not with overcards on the flop.

[mixchange]

What do you mean by showdown value?

[martindcx1e]

What do you mean by showdown value?

If you have a hand like 88 here you want to bet it and try to win the pot right then and there b/c the board figures to be really really scary for your weak hand by the river. With a hand like QQ here the only card you don't want to see really is an A so you are more likely to win at showdown then with a hand like 88 (so you have better showdown value). By checking the flop with QQ you can possibly extract some extra money out of non-K hands while not being too paranoid about what cards will come. Is that clear at all?

[TerryToma]

i usually bet the flop here too, but its ok to check it, as the flop is pretty dry.

def. bet turn though if check flop.

[Miffed22001]

What do you mean by showdown value?

Given the board, you want to showdown your hand on the river for a controlled pot size (say 20bbs total) rather than trying to get all the money in and play a huge pot. Lots of hands are lukewarm and have the capacity to be shown down to scoop the pot a fair percentage of the time, whereas others do not and other want to get all in.

[mixchange]

Thanks. I thought "showdown" referred somehow to the value of showing what cards you had in this situation, which seems bizarre since I don't ever like leaking info unless I think it incites a tilt (e.g. big bluff).

I getcha.

[dpe8598]

I bet flop about half the time and check about half the time. As played, I always bet turn. Probably bet river as well for value. It is going to be hard to make me fold this hand, villain has to make me a believer!