Top pair good kicker vs. maniacs- help!

[jayknabl]

PokerRoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

($26.45)
Button ($15.25)
SB ($59.10)
BB ($53.20)
UTG ($14.60)
MP ($37.35)

Preflop: is with Ac. 10d
UTG calls $0.25, MP calls $0.25, calls $0.25, Button calls $0.25, jayknabl raises to $0.95, 1 fold, UTG calls $0.60, MP folds, calls $0.60, Button folds.

Flop: ($3.15) 8, 7, A (3 players)
jayknabl bets $2, UTG calls $2, calls $2.

Turn: ($9.15) 4 (3 players)
jayknabl checks, UTG bets $1, bets $7

UHHHHHH

What on earth would you have done here?? I figure for him to make that move he must be on at LEAST 2 pair, if not trips... I know this guy to be a dumbass player as well. Wanted to call but couldn't. How would you have played it?

[zook]

Can't find your hole cards. And if you're going to raise pre-flop, make it $2.

[jayknabl]

Fixed it...

Raising 8xBB pre-flop? Really? That sounds a bit massive to me

[badandy519]

Standard raise is usually 3-4x the big blind +1 bb for every limper. If you're opening a pot for $1, with 4 limpers you need to make it $2 or so.

[zook]

Raising 8xBB pre-flop? Really? That sounds a bit massive to me

Yeah, 4 limpers and you're in the worst position. You'd really like to take this down pre-flop, or at least narrow it to one or two callers. But that's better with AJs+ or AQ0+... ATo is pretty weak to be raising 4 limpers from the SB. I just complete. As played easy fold on the turn.

[jayknabl]

you guys are awesome... i never would have thought of any of the stuff you mention, but as you shed light on it, it all makes a lot of sense. I think I need to post more hands, could probably save myself some bad beats.

thanks a lot for the input

[wufwugy]

Standard raise is usually 3-4x the big blind +1 bb for every limper. If you're opening a pot for $1, with 4 limpers you need to make it $2 or so.

i dont understand the rationale behind +1 bb for every limper.

[badandy519]

Basically it's just an easy standard to go by that is close to a "pot" bet and denies odds to random hands. Say you're in the big blind at $25 NL with AA, and there are 4 limpers before you, and you only raise to your standard $1, they are all getting very good (increasing) odds to call and crack your overpair with any semi playable hand.

If you raise the same hand to $2.50 or so, that's close to 1/10 the buyin and even if they call to hit their set or flush or whatever and stack you, unless you pay them off EVERY time and never suck out after they make a hand, they are making the mistake, not you.

[wufwugy]

i dont much care for that standard. strikes me as rudimentary and ultimately shaky.

since you're not going to make these moves with big pairs exclusively, you'll be building large pots with hands that tend to not want large pots. hands like AK like big pots, but not too big.

when playing deep and not in some kinda big pot/raising battle then giving odds are more about postflop hand reading and not paying off optimistic calls.

and you def do not wanna do that OOP (blinds) with non-big pairs.

raising the pot or slightly more preflop may be a good idea, however, 4 blinds +1 blind per limper is sometimes a bit more than the pot.

[mixchange]

raising the pot for every limper is great if you notice people at the table making mistakes and calling things they shouldn't (which is most tables at this limit). If you have good flop skills, raising pre-flop is frequently a great idea and against many weak tight players you can sneeze at the pot and if they miss they will fold.

the advice on this hand was pristine, IMO. The limper part has helped my game since I added it. .

[Miffed22001]

i dont much care for that standard. strikes me as rudimentary and ultimately shaky.

since you're not going to make these moves with big pairs exclusively, you'll be building large pots with hands that tend to not want large pots. hands like AK like big pots, but not too big.

when playing deep and not in some kinda big pot/raising battle then giving odds are more about postflop hand reading and not paying off optimistic calls.

and you def do not wanna do that OOP (blinds) with non-big pairs.

raising the pot or slightly more preflop may be a good idea, however, 4 blinds +1 blind per limper is sometimes a bit more than the pot.

if you use pot control and only play big pots with bad players it works fine.

[givememyleg]

I wouldn't have raised AT out of the sb.

[dannyd267]

I wouldn't have raised AT out of the sb.

would you have just called preflop or folded? If you just called and an A fell, would you pop it up to about 3 on the flop (2x the pot) to see where you stood and taking away the odds for the straight draw. The 4 falling could've completed a straight for the 56. This is where I would've gotten lost....if I had popped it up to 3 on the flop (after just calling) and got 2 callers, I would be frozen, the pot would be BIG, and I would be first to act. It looks like Jayknabl started with 26 bucks so this scenario would've put him close to being pot committed, especially if he would've bet 9 bucks on the turn, which is what I probably would've ended up doing, thus committing myself. I would like to get more feedback on this situation.

Should the bottom line be....if you have ATo in the sb, either raise it big or get out cuz your position sucks?

[zook]

wufwugy: Players who limp/call a lot generally aren't that strong. If they are decent they're usually holding predictable hands like small pp's or suited connectors. The 4xBB+1BB/limper "rule" is easily adjusted for reads/position, but it serves me well at full ring, and I raise 15% of hands.

dannyd267: That's about right with ATo from the SB. It's a classic reverse implied odds hand... an ace comes on the flop and you're probably going to win a small pot or lose a bigger one.

[wufwugy]

i agree with all, but i think +1bb/limper is a little much. 2 limpers and you're almost raising double the pot. currently, im sticking with 4bb or pot or slightly more when 4bb is smaller than pot.