Big Hand, But Lost Value

[Galapogos]

I know preflop is not standard but I felt like playing a multi-way pot. These guys were calling off with anything. I wanted to keep the pot small at first so I could draw cheap and get paid off big when I hit. Then when villian raised from the blinds I knew he had a good overpair. So the game plan changed. He was the only decent player at the table but I know he has a very hard time laying down overpairs so I gladly took a flop with him. Anyway, that's preflop, on we go:

Texas Hold'em $1-$1 NL (Real Money), #1,906,818,010
Table Kirka50's HE, 21 Feb 2007 12:11 AM ET

Seat 1: Galapogos [J,T] ($372.25 in chips)
Seat 3: Flaps57 ($59.75 in chips)
Seat 4: akadestroyer ($257 in chips)
Seat 8: Kask123 ($49.90 in chips)
Seat 9: barta12345 ($103.50 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
Flaps57 posts blind ($0.50), akadestroyer posts blind ($1).

PRE-FLOP
Kask123 folds, barta12345 calls $1, Galapogos calls $1, Flaps57 calls $0.50, akadestroyer bets $4, barta12345 folds, Galapogos calls $4, Flaps57 folds.

FLOP [board cards 3,T,5]
akadestroyer bets $7, Galapogos calls $7.

TURN [board cards 3,T,5,J]
akadestroyer bets $13, Galapogos bets $35, akadestroyer calls $22.

RIVER [board cards 3,T,5,J,J]
akadestroyer bets $40 (has $171 behind), Galapogos bets ???


What would be the best sized bet here? How does the rest of the hand look? I think my turn bet kinda sucks now that I look back on it...

[Sykedupp]

maybe if we knew your cards...

-Chris

[givememyleg]

55? TJs?

[gabe]

make it $100 if you have a good hand

[Galapogos]

Haha stupid Pokerroom upgrade doesn't show your starting hands until showdown in HHs now. It's fixed.

[Genitruc]

I'd either shove or minraise depending on what I'd seen from villain before

[Sykedupp]

id make it 110 to go, if he'd call 100 he'd call 110, and im gonna pretend im a better value bettor then gabe

PS: preflop isnt too weird IMO, i actually really liked how you played this hand overall. (until the river?)

-Chris

[Muzzard]

I'd be raising to 90-120, dependant on your read. What do you put villain on in this spot?

QQ+?
QK?
AJ?
Set on the flop?

I cant really think of many other hands that make sense for his turn call and betting out on the river.

He sure played QQ+ a bit wierd on the turn if thats what he had. He should be able to lay it down to a river raise, but maybe not given your read.

[noble007]

I bet more almost putting him all in.
Like 135 & they'll often push themselves for the rest.
If he doesn't have at least a J he might even be able to fold any overpair to a min raise because of the your turn play. (which I like)
& if he does have AJ or anything better he's certainly not going to be able to get away from it so make him pay...

[IowaSkinsFan]

with read I push.
idk that this guy is folding any hand he's playing like this.

[Miffed22001]

stick it all in, i don think he folds what hes got or isnt calling anymore anyway.

[Galapogos]

I put him on AA or KK, maybe QQ but unlikely. I've only seen hm raise AA-KK from the blinds but I wouldn't rule QQ out.

I bet $110 and he folded. Maybe I'm being results oriented here but I think a min-raise would have been best. Here's why, I raised on the turn when the J showed up. Then another came on the river. That's really the worst card that isn't an out for him. Now even someone like him that overvalues his AA can lay it down happily. In retrospect I think if the river was a blank $110 would have been good.

Results oriented or does that seem sound?

[Warpe]

I was thinking about a double up myself, but if he's calling for another $40 he's calling for another $60, so a hundo to go.

How long did he tank?

[Galapogos]

I was thinking about a double up myself, but if he's calling for another $40 he's calling for another $60, so a hundo to go.

How long did he tank?

It wasn't an insta-fold but he did fold fairly quickley. I guess he didn't want to give up on AA quite yet but had b/f in his head on the river.

[zenbitz]

flop call?

[Galapogos]

flop call?

Why did I make the flop call? I put villian on specifically AA-KK that he won't want to lay down and look at our stacks. Think implied odds.

[DaNutsInYoEye]

A more interesting discussion would be if he makes that same bet and you have air. What would you do?

[Galapogos]

A more interesting discussion would be if he makes that same bet and you have air. What would you do?

On the river? Well I suppose if I had commited myself to winning this hand with a bluff I would push the river. Of course I NEVER do these plays anymore because people like to call too much at these stakes still.

Realistically against this opponent if I had found myself on the river with air I would fold as I seriously doubt his ability to fold his hand here. The reason I didn't push the river here hoping he would call is I have never played a deepstacked pot with him before so I figured maybe he would be capable of folding.

Incidently, with the hand I had, if we were 100bbs stacks I would have pushed the turn knowing he would call. Wasn't too sure how easily he gave it up with deeper stacks though.

[swiggidy]

pot is $37 on turn, $50 after your call. So you could raise a little more here. Since we're not afraid of draws and we think (know) we're ahead your bet is good. The only reason I would consider bigger is because pot (un)control. Does he call a raise to $45?

On the turn I think he puts you on 33, 55, TT, maybe JT.

My initial thought was a push was best.

If you think a min-raise gets called close to 100% then it would be best. If this is a true blocking then pushing is best (especially because that's what you would do with a bluff). If he calls $110 30% of the time, he only has to call a push 20% of the time for equal expectation (which would be him calling a min-raise 85% of the time).

[zenbitz]

flop call?

Why did I make the flop call? I put villian on specifically AA-KK that he won't want to lay down and look at our stacks. Think implied odds.

Yeah, you have 5 outs + b/d middling flush - AND he didn't pay you off when you hit. Assuming he doesn't river you if a jack turns (8 outs for him).

I suppose it's not terrible, just a little marginal.

[dsaxton]

I'd just call.

[koolmoe]

If you are very certain he's got a big overpair, I think I prefer raising the turn bigger, maybe to $50. His turn bet looked weak, so I'm not sure he can easily fold to a 3/4 pot sized raise. Don't forget that he has 8 outs against you.

Since you are very certain he's got an overpair, you should be reading his river bet as a bet/fold line, so make a min-raise and hope for a call. Really, any raise will look strong here, but maybe he won't be able to resist a call getting 5:1 or so.

[jackvance]

Yeah flop call isn't great considering your read and the fact that he seems to be able to lay those hands down too. You called a near psb and actually hit your 5-outer and you still didn't get paid. I think you have to get his stack like 100% of the time if you hit, considering you're drawing to only 5 outs (10% to hit on turn when you'll face another big bet) and a hand that is also easily counterfeited.. like if the river was an A or K, or paired the bottom card, what then?

[Galapogos]

flop call?

Why did I make the flop call? I put villian on specifically AA-KK that he won't want to lay down and look at our stacks. Think implied odds.

Yeah, you have 5 outs + b/d middling flush - AND he didn't pay you off when you hit. Assuming he doesn't river you if a jack turns (8 outs for him).

I suppose it's not terrible, just a little marginal.

How did he not pay me off? I didn't get his entire stack but I got enough to justify a $7 flop call easily even without him calling the river raise.

[jackvance]

Hm I think you're right.. called $7 on a 10% to improve.. made $75 (+$15 pot).. now considering the money you lose when your hand gets counterfeited, that's about what you need to make to make this play breakeven I think.

[zenbitz]

OK, OK, it was a brilliant float! <grin>

[Galapogos]

OK, OK, it was a brilliant float! <grin>

The question was about the river.

If you felt I played some other part poorly by all means tell me. If I feel I'm right I will argue my point. If you see something wrong in my argument, point it out and tell me why. That is how these things work. Like how Jack explained why he thinks the flop call is ultimately a breakeven play.

I don't make brag posts.